In this episode of the Transformative Leader Podcast, I’m happy to bring you a conversation with business and leadership coach, Jen Thornton, about the seven deadly sins of leadership that no one is talking about, and how leaders can overcome the temptation of committing them. Some of those sins, such as being addicted to being right, keep us from being the best versions of ourselves as leaders and delivering our best results. In our conversation, Jen offers several suggestions on how we can do a better job of empowering and engaging team members, despite the presence of these leadership traps.
0:00:00.0 S1: If, for example, your team comes to you and they have this idea and you’re like, I don’t think that’s gonna work… I don’t like that. Your choice is to say, I think that’s a horrible idea. Go back at it. Or you could say, Hey, I don’t see your viewpoint, but change my mind, I try to change my mind, because what that does is it opens up the ability to bring new ideas without getting in trouble, because if you get in trouble, you’ll eventually stop bringing new ideas to the table. And it allows you to step away from, am I right or wrong? Because if you’re saying that’s a horrible idea, go back at it. You just assumed you were right.
0:00:47.1 S2: Welcome to the transformative leader, a Podcast where we talk about what’s holding you back from being and showing up as the transformative leader that you already are. This is America, your host, and the author of the transformative leader. My mission is to put people in touch with their greatness so they fulfill their unique purpose in the world. On this podcast, we do that by giving you an abundance of actionable insight that you can put the good use immediately in your personal and professional life. I’m committed that every episode will leave you compelled to boldly declare, courageously pursue and abundantly achieved the extraordinary… And today’s episode, we’re going to talk about the seven deadly sins of leadership that no one is talking about. We’ll get into how being addicted to being right, that holds you back from delivering the best results that you could deliver and experiencing a fulfillment. My guest today is Jen Parton. She has developed her expertise and talent strategy and leadership professional development over her exciting 20-plus year career as an HR professional, the rapid growth of her consulting firm 304 Coaching has been largely due to Jennifer’s unconventional approach to building innovative workforce development solutions for companies who are facing breakthrough growth and accelerated hiring patterns.
0:02:22.0 S2: Jen is a sought after business strategist, specializing in startups and large value-based organizations, She assists her clients and building talent strategies that complement their business strategies to ensure exponential growth. Well, it’s great to have you with us, Jen, thanks for being on the show.
0:02:43.8 S1: Thank you for having me. Jennie.
0:02:46.2 S2: Really excited about this conversation. We share a similar passion for leadership and culture and coaching. And I’m wondering if you could just tell us how you got to this point in your career. What’s your background? So, you know, it’s interesting, I think we all end up in leaders by Knapp. Instance, I don’t think anyone wakes up one day and says, I’m gonna do this and that and become a leader, and very early on in my mommy early jobs, I ended up in some leadership roles, very minor, obviously, but as I was progressing early in my career in the retail industry, I really started to notice that I didn’t get my results. Like most people, most people in retail, they’re highly competitive, we wake up tour results every single morning, we have that score card, and I’m not naturally highly competitive to be number one, but I typically was a top performer and I noticed that I was doing it really different and for many years that felt strange, I was different from everyone else, but then I kind of fell into that knowledge of it’s because I do it through my team, I was really passionate about having the best people on my team, I was really passionate about making sure that they were incredible.
0:04:02.1 S2: And
0:04:02.3 S1: So I recognize that I got my results different, but that was okay because it worked, and I led the operation side for years, and then I went into HR because of my passion around talent strategies and managing your business through great talent and progressed through many years in my career and a few years ago, I really saw an opportunity to help executives become better leaders, and I know a lot of us just like you wanna do that, and the reason I wanna do it is because I feel like before happier at work and when we come home to our family, we’re gonna treat our family better, we’re gonna have better quality relationships at home, therefore our children and our spouses and whoever we share our personal space with, we’ll also have a better life, and I just feel like… Yes, it’s fantastic, and we wanna drive our business and have great results and all that good stuff, but doing all that also allows those employees to go home and create better worlds at home too.
0:05:01.2 S2: I love that, I absolutely love that philosophy, and I always stop people, I say, if you really care about people and you nurture the whole person, a better employee will emerge, but it has to be about something bigger than just sort of getting this quarter’s results and things like that. That is really fantastic. And I love what you said about how we stumbled into leadership, I gotta share with you just a quick story, ’cause I took a similar path and that… I was a mechanical engineer, started in a technical role, but I was really fortunate in that before I even read any leadership books, I sort of recognized that I was never gonna be as good as those guys who were working out for me, and so I was just like, Hey, you know what, maybe the best thing that I can do is to empower these folks and energize these folks, and that’s how I got into it many, many years ago as well.
0:06:01.1 S1: That’s a great story. Yeah, it’s interesting how we get results and… There’s not one way to do it, there’s a lot of different ways to do it.
0:06:09.0 S2: Yes, absolutely. No, no, you talk about something that I think is still so relevant because I come across leaders who have not really had a lot of training and development, or coaching and leadership, and this topic is addicted to being right. It’s really good people who are experts in their field, but they just haven’t really gotten it… Right, exactly. In terms of how to lead, and I know you talk about these seven deadly sins of leadership that nobody’s talking about, and so… Can we dig into that?
0:06:52.3 S1: Yeah, absolutely. And so what’s interesting about the brain is that it loves dopamine, and we all know that, and if we’re addicted to sugar or a substance or anything, it’s because that dopamine hit happens, and as we know with any addiction, the more you have… The more you need to fill that same base level of Bill… Goodness, right. And being right, any time we are right, we get a dopamine hit. It feels good. We’re like, we won, we were right that we were a smartest person in the room, like… Anything that happens, it’s positive. We get a dopamine hit. Well, what can happen over time, just like an addiction to sugar or substance, you can actually become addicted to being right, you can get addicted to that dopamine hit, and so you have to be more right each time, so that you get that same base level of enjoyment and what that can do is you meet those executives and you maybe worked with them or knew them younger in their career, and you’re thinking, Well, they used to be so open to different people’s viewpoints, and they used to be so much more engaged in conversation and learning and now all they do is yell and tell and storm around.
0:08:08.4 S1: Well, it’s not that they’re leading different, it’s because they’ve gotten addicted to that dopamine, they’ve had a ton of success, and that addiction has put them in a place that if anyone else is right or if they are wrong, it’s really taking their drug away and they don’t like that, and that addiction can lead to really negative leadership styles, which I always call the seven deadly sins.
0:08:34.6 S2: Yeah, no, that’s so right. And it’s somebody who has had a good bit of success and experience and being… Right, and they sort of take it for granted that, Hey, you know what, I know what I’m talking about. Even in unfamiliar circumstances or situations that may be very different than their experience, I’ve seen that they project sort of, Hey, you know what, I think… I’ve seen this before, and here’s how we need to go do it. When in fact, they’re actually putting two and two together and getting 50, 496 because they’re filling in the blanks based on their experience of having been… Right.
0:09:18.4 S1: Yeah, and that’s kind of what I use when I think about pride as Pride, one of our deadly sins, and when we are so prideful that the only way the truth can be found is through our lens and we’re not… We’re adding two and two together to get 5 million because we’re so prideful, and if someone else in the room is right or someone else has a better idea, and we accept that, then we’re losing our own pride and pride a deadly sin. And that’s exactly what’s happening.
0:09:54.0 S2: Yeah, yeah, that’s a very good one. So what are some of these other sins?
0:09:58.3 S1: Yeah, so one of them is agreed, and when you think about greed, and often times we get so motivated by our truth that it’s actually financially hard on our organization, and so that greed of, I have to be so right and it’s all about me. And this energy of more, more mini and sometimes when are in high greed, our financial decisions short-term don’t help us long-term, sometimes we’re like, Well, now I’ve got to make this decision ’cause I’m gonna make a million dollars this year. Well, long term and down the road, because of that greed, we’re actually gonna lose money or we’ve lost our top players, so we struggle to deliver to our customers next year, and so greed is one that I see lot was that leader that just comes in and has just this angry tone about themselves or makes comments about how no one is as smart as he or she is, or you’re stupid. I don’t like your ideas, or, why did you do it that way? And that real angry. And a lot of it is because they’re just in this place where their chemicals in their mind are taking over their rational thinking, and that wrath starts to hurt the business and it hurts our relationships, and if we don’t have a great relationships in the workplace, then we’re not gonna be hitting our financial numbers and we’re not gonna be making our objectives.
0:11:35.1 S2: Got it. Yeah, all of those sound like the kinds of things that we would all agree that it’s not a good thing. And I wanna hear about the rest of these as well, but what I wanna kinda also get into is why is it that on the surface, we all say, Yeah, sure, that’s a bad thing, but then… We still do it. Some of us are still very much in that mode. So what’s your perspective on that? Then we’ll get into the other sins as well, but how would you coach somebody who knows in theory that these things are wrong, but they do it anyway.
0:12:16.1 S1: Yeah, and so the reason we know it’s wrong, but we do it anyway, is the addiction to the chemical response in our mind, we know smoking is bad, but people still smoke and they wanna try to stop and they try to stop all the time. There’s chemical responses in our body that make that difficult, and so when I’m working with leaders that I have some inkling that they may be addicted to ride, they may be having a hard time managing the chemical responses in their mind… We just start talking about it. What kind of leader do you want to be? And what do you want people to… How do you want people to describe you? And we write that down and we create this really the story that the leader wants to be known for, and then we say, Alright, when you read that, when does this person show up, does this… How often does this person show up, and so we get them to really start to see that who they want to be and who they are two different people, and you have to then come to terms, are you willing to do the work to say goodbye to your addiction to be who you want to be.
0:13:18.5 S1: Just like we have to do that with any… In our life.
0:13:22.5 S2: Yeah, yeah. So why don’t you talk about the other sins as well, and just say a few words about those as well.
0:13:28.3 S1: Yeah, so NV is another one. And so this is around chasing status, if we have gotten to a certain status in our career and maybe we’re caught up in our title or the car we drive, or our influence in the industry, that V and chasing that and making sure that we’re at that level oftentimes, and we can see other people of that and we’re envious at that next level, and so oftentimes, we make really poor decisions because we’re envious of others or were envious of the thought of losing our status, and so… That’s a difficult place to be in. But again, when we are envious of a status, we start to make decisions that can hurt the business, lust is another one, and that’s the lack of honesty and claiming credit, and so if you’re less full, it’s all about having more… I’m blessing towards having more of the big ideas, and I saw this person over here that a great idea, but you know what, in my mind, all of a sudden it’s my idea, and I think we’ve all worked for that person where we told them something and then a week later, they’re talking about their great idea, and you’re like, Wait a minute, I told you that last week, and it’s that lust of like, I must fly one at all, and then gluttony, obviously that’s the Selene of the addiction to that dopamine hits, and so many people just keep chasing that hit and wanting more of it, and then the last one, which is the one we see so much is slow, and you’re thinking, Wow, most people Detroit probably aren’t lazy, and you’re right, they’re not…
0:15:13.2 S1: But what happens is they start criticizing work, they’re not willing to do themselves, and so that’s a sloth… It’s not doing the work. And so oftentimes, when you see leaders who are very addicted to their own viewpoints and their own needs to be right and to have status and all of those things, they’ll walk around the office and more than happy criticize everyone around them, even though they’ve never done that, job, nor are they willing to do the job.
0:15:43.4 S2: Really great, it’s a great parallel to the seven that lease ends and how you talk about them in the context of the workplace or leadership, and we all need to examine ourselves… I tell you what one that just jumped out at me, and I really take comfort in knowing that I haven’t too guilty, even though on some of these, I definitely have been and I’ve made some corrections, but I can tell you at home, I’ve been guilty of coming up with ideas that my wife has suggested to me many times and innocently just saying, Hey, you know, why don’t we do this, and then I get that look, like I have told you that like six times already, so I’ve done that not on purpose, but I think it’s really good to sort of self-reflect and say, look, any of us, I think can two or three of these where we have to be really a lot more intentional about making sure that we don’t fall into that trap. Right.
0:16:48.5 S1: Yeah, every one of us have done a level of any of these at any given time, and you’re absolutely right, it’s about self-awareness and it’s about reading the room… Your story with your wife… You read the room really well. She was pretty clear non-verbally with her, look that, Hey, we need talk about this. Or That’s not what how I see it. And
0:17:07.9 S2: So I think that’s one of the things that people have to really start to think about, is how do they review, do they see the responses around them and are they paying attention to how people are responding around them? Thank you for listening to the transformative leader podcast. If you like our content, you would love the new community we have created on the court is an exclusive community for leaders who are committed to expanding their influence and delivering Breakthrough Results personally and professionally, we offer leadership development content and coaching customized to your specific level of experience available on the man, on your computer or via our mobile app for you to consume at your pace, you will be part of a supportive community that is there to give you feedback and encouragement, or a note to get out of the stands and back on the court all at a very affordable price. Learn more and sign up to join our community at on the court leadership dot com today. Yeah, I know you talk about conversational intelligence now, we know about emotional intelligence, we know about all of that stuff, but what is… Say more about conversational intelligence.
0:18:32.4 S1: Yeah, and so Conversational Intelligence, it’s based in the neuroscience of how the brain responds to conversations, and so all the stuff we’ve been talking about today so far really are the basis of conversation intelligence, and so the way we were taught to lead in that 20th century leadership be strong and make sure that you tell people what they’re supposed to do, and all this stuff that we were told on how to lead actually causes fear in the mind, and the way we’re using language causes fear, and when fear is in place, our permanent brain is in charge. And that happens a lot in the workplace. And when our primitive brain is in charge and keeping us away from anything that may hurt us, whether that’s judgment or the loss of our job or our boss might not like us, our pre-frontal cortex is closed down, and that is where everything that needs to happen is going on, and so you close down the ability to collaborate, the innovative, think of new ideas, to be open to learning, all the stuff that you need in the workplace, your language has now shut that down and close the door to it.
0:19:45.5 S2: Yeah, so really paying attention to what we’re talking about. And I’ve found that it’s not just what we were saying to others, but also it kind of starts with that conversation… What happened with ourselves, right?
0:19:59.5 S1: It does, and it starts with that. And it starts with just really thinking about our language because we can be honest, ’cause a lot of times that I’m teaching, conversation, intelligent. And people are like, Well, I need to be honest. And I’m like, Absolutely, you do need to be honest. But so many times how we’re honest because of our own fears or our inability to do… To understand how the mind works. When we’re honest, we create fear, and so if, for example, your team comes to you and they have this idea and you’re like, I don’t think that’s gonna work, I don’t like that. Your choice is to say, I think that’s a horrible idea. Go back at it. Or you could say, Hey, I don’t see your viewpoint, but change my mind, I try to change my mind, because what that does is it opens up the ability to bring new ideas without getting in trouble is if you get in trouble, you’ll eventually stop bringing new ideas to the table. And it allows you to step away from, am I right or wrong? Because if you’re saying that’s a horrible idea, go back at it, you just assumed you were right, but if you say, change my mind, then you get to hear your team’s viewpoints, they may bring you information you never have thought about.
0:21:12.8 S1: They may be looking at a new trend that you’re unaware of, and so when you just say things like, Hey, I don’t see it, change my mind, it’s amazing. What can come out of that conversation?
0:21:24.4 S2: Yeah, what I really like about that is that you’re being honest in saying where you are, but you’re also creating a space to say, Look, I’m open to other ideas, because sometimes I think people feel like I can either totally agree with you or just the molise… I can’t really… Or I might say, Oh yeah, that’s a really good idea, ’cause I don’t wanna tell you that I don’t like the idea, but then I don’t do anything about it, and that has a negative effect as well.
0:21:53.9 S1: Absolutely, yeah, and that’s about… And that’s just a small example of how you can change your language, so the people on your team are in a place of inspiration, they’re in a space where it’s okay to have a different view point, it’s okay to bring something to the table that no one else has thought of and not be ridiculed, it’s okay to have a different opinion than my supervisor, but the way we are kind of taught to lead, like I said, closes all of that down, and so it’s just… It’s amazing when you start to work with teams and they start to understand how to use language to be more innovative and to get the results they’ve always wanted, or to think of their customer different… It’s amazing what can happen. And it’s amazing what happens when you don’t do it. I think code is a great example of that. Back in the day, code had the first digital camera, but the board who, the group of people who make decisions on new product, that’s a craziest idea ever. No one wouldn’t want digital cameras, everyone’s always gonna want to print and hold their pictures, and so they scrapped the idea of a digital camera…
0:23:04.4 S1: Well, we know the end of that story. Everyone went to digital cameras and code really struggled to stay afloat and their whole business of those little kind of code at places in the park, in the little tiny places we wished to have our pictures printed are all gone now. But if they had said, I don’t see it, but show me the trends. What could have happened for Kodak?
0:23:25.5 S2: Yeah, no, it’s a great point. And I always say that the culture of an organization of lives in its language, like if you walk around an organization and just listen to the language, you can pretty much tell, but the culture of the organization is… And so I really love this point that you brought up around just a very small change in what to say, What are some other examples of some shifts we can make in our language to create the right culture to really lead our teams properly.
0:24:01.9 S1: Yeah, and so there’s a lot of different things you can do. And one of the exercises, especially if you are… Try to make some cultural shift to a new language and really open up the mind, and one of the things that I teach people is what’s called a crazy idea meeting, and if you have been sitting in that place or you’re like, Man, I know my Language has kind of been shutting down my team and you can’t just walk up to someone and say, I’m gonna have an open mind now, go eat, go, tell me what you want. That’s not gonna work. So how do you switch the tide… And so one of the simple fun things you can do is have a crazy idea of meeting, and so instead of calling your team and say, Hey, we’re gonna brainstorm on how to get project X off the ground, we’re losing our customers with this, instead of just saying that… ’cause that’s gonna shut down fear, we’re in trouble, we’re losing market share. All of this fear, instead say, Hey, I want you to come meet me a 2 o’clock on Thursday afternoon in the board room, and what I want you to do is bring me the most ridiculous insane ideas about how to drive project X, and I wanna make sure that they are just out of this world.
0:25:14.4 S1: In fact, I’m gonna reward the person who has the most ridiculous idea, and so what that does is it, it tells in my brain, wow, I’m gonna get rewarded for just getting out there and just thinking big. I’m not gonna get in trouble if I get honest, because I know my boss is really personally attached to how we’ve been selling this product, but I know it’s not gonna work in the future, all of that fear starts to shut down because you’re gonna reward people for really thinking out of the box. And having those types of conversations.
0:25:51.9 S2: Really great. I used to tell my people several years ago, I said, we were in a really tumultuous scan, a situation in a manufacturing plant that I was managing, and I used to always tell them, I said, You know, I love Bad news. Now they knew what I meant. It wasn’t like, Go do something bad, so you can bring me some bad news, but it’s like, Bring me the news, ’cause you know it’s out there, it’s just that people are hesitating to talk about…
0:26:18.2 S1: Yeah, I think that’s just a great best practice you just gave your listeners… Yeah, tell people, give me the bad news because that’s an opportunity to improve, and it opens up people to be honest, and I think that’s such a powerful way to lead the other question, you can say at the end of a meeting or the end of a touch basis, what do we not talk about today that… You know, I need to hear
0:26:45.4 S2: Really good… Yeah, what is it that… I don’t know that, I don’t know. Right.
0:26:49.5 S1: Exactly. ’cause there’s a lot of that. I don’t care, how detailed do you think you are as an executive leader, there are stuff you need to know that no one is telling you right now.
0:26:59.2 S2: Yes, yes. And Andy Stanley, who was known as a Pastor, Andy Stanley, but it was also a great leadership resource and gurus as leaders who… Don’t listen, eventually find themselves surrounded by people who have nothing to say. Isn’t that really true?
0:27:24.2 S1: It is true. In fact, that’s one of the things that when people ask me like, How do I know if I’m editor… And I always tell them the first thing you do is get your team into a meeting room and ask them a really big question, what do you think about… Whatever. And if everyone fall silent and they all look at each other, they’re waiting for you to tell them how they’re supposed to take, and then you have put yourself in a position where your team is it telling you the truth, because you have not been willing to listen and it’s just a great little test to see where you’re at…
0:27:55.3 S2: Yeah, that’s a really great indicator if they’re kind of looking at your facial expressions or they’re waiting for you to say a word to sort of point in a certain direction, and I’ll tell you, I think that is really challenging when you actually take over a team that has been led by someone who didn’t listen, and it’s kind of hard to get people out of that mode because it’s like it’s not about just telling them how, Listen, I wanted this into you, it’s not about that, it’s about demonstrating it, that you truly are interested in their ideas, not just for them to reinforce what you’re thinking…
0:28:30.9 S1: Yeah, and I’m so glad you brought that up. It’s such an important piece of it. If you’re a new leader trying to take over a team to have a culture of innovation and openness and curiosity, or if you’re a leader and you really wanna start changing and moving towards that, it doesn’t happen overnight, and you can’t walk in and say, Well, this is how our environment is check check, you have to really think about it from a latter-ing situation, every action that you do that reinforces people’s ability to be honest, provide feedback and be innovative and not get in trouble for it, create someone the next time for it to be bigger and bigger. And so you don’t get there over a night, it’s just like a ladder, every step you take feels like, Wow, I’m really high right now, this makes me nervous by stemmed of fills, flip floppy, but if you stand there for a while, it feels normal and you’re like Oh, okay. And then you take that next step up the ladder, and then once again you’re like, Oh, this feels a little high, I don’t know, but think about the changing your culture that way, and don’t get mad and frustrated because you tell people how to think…
0:29:36.0 S1: And then the next day they don’t think that way, because then you’re just reinforcing the fact that you don’t want them to think…
0:29:42.0 S2: Right, right. It’s kind of like taking your kids on vacation and telling everybody, Hey, everybody better have fun or else you’ll be in trouble, it’s like, Look, you have to create a space where people haven’t… But I tell you, there was a trick that I used to play… I hate to say that I had this team of leaders would never have been trained or developed in leadership, and they had a horrible sort of role model, and so I had to really break some of the habits. So one of the tricks I used to play on them was I would ask an open-ended question and then they would kind of begin to give me input, and then I would just throw out the opposite answers like, Well, I’m kind of thinking, we ought to go this way, and then they begin to migrate that way, and then I would change my mind again and I would come this way and say, No, no. How about this other way? And then I would stop and say, Listen guys, I’m not asking you to agree with me. Can see you guys just went over here with me and then you went over there with me, so after a while, whenever I did actually express my opinion…
0:30:45.4 S2: They didn’t know if I was messing with them, I was really honest. So they had no choice, but to be honest with what they were thinking, thing was that it was after I had built a bit of a relationship with them, so we could also be kind of playful with this, but it was like, Look… Every time you sense that I’m going left, I don’t want you to follow me that way until I start going right. No, do your own thing.
0:31:13.0 S1: We know and what a powerful way to teach them how to just pause and think what is my actual viewpoint on this instead of just getting caught up in the hype, and we’re tribal creatures, and we will instinctively get caught up in the hype because that’s how our brains are built, we’re… The neutrons in our brain are built to agree with others, but that’s not always the right thing to do, so what a great gift you gave them, teaching you how to think on their own…
0:31:45.6 S2: Yeah, that was a fun experiment and it was effective. So let’s talk about communication as we’ve talked about conversation, intelligence and so on, obviously the world is kind of undergoing a lot of change right now, we have a global pandemic and so on and so forth. A lot of people are working from home. What do you see as the future of workplace communication?
0:32:12.1 S1: Oh, that’s such a great question. And that is interesting, and man, if we all had a crystal ball, right, it would help out. So I think that the future of communication, I think what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna see kind of a divine… I think that what we’re seeing is a lot of crisis management because the world is really tough right now, and it doesn’t seem to be any less polarized by any means, we don’t see this coming to end any time soon, and so there are people who are crisis managing, and there is a time for crisis management, but it doesn’t really work right outside of crisis management, but because we’ve been crisis managing so much, we’re kind of getting into that habit, and so I think there’s going to be a shift towards very… Crisis management, do, as I say, Don’t think just go, go, do what I tell you, buildings on fire, get out type mentality. But then I think there’s gonna be the counter to that, and I think the counter to that, because that’s gonna feel so uncomfortable to some people, the counter to that is really opening up and creating amazing conversations, and you hear stories about people sitting down and talking about things in the workplace that were taboo to talk about in previous years, and so they’re really opening up these conversations, and so I think that you’ll start to see a divide and less in the middle and…
0:33:38.9 S1: Right or wrong, that’s where I think we’re headed, and hopefully more people than not really stop and pause and say, Hey, I don’t wanna be a crisis Manager, I don’t wanna fall into these habits I’ve been using the last year, I really wanna move into a place of open, honest learning and really taking someone’s reality and their feelings as their truth and trying to understand that…
0:34:02.7 S2: Yeah, and I know this is becoming more and more prevalent and important, this whole notion of psychological safety, making sure that we really truly understand each other, and it’s gonna be such an important… Is gonna play such an important part in our company cultures…
0:34:23.0 S1: Yeah, and to create that safety, we have to know how the mind works because we can’t work against it, we can think we’re saying everything and providing psychological safety, but if we don’t understand the chemical reactions and how the mind looks at groups and how… When you feel like you’re going to be voted off the island, how you react negatively just because your brains kind of fight or flight mode to provide psychological safety, we have to understand the mind and lead in a way that’s with it and not against it.
0:34:57.9 S2: Very good, very good. Well, Jen, you’ve shared a lot of really great perspective with us, thank you so much, I really appreciate it. How can our listeners get a hold of you… Find out more about what you guys do.
0:35:22.0 S2: Fantastic, thank you so much again, I appreciate it. Thank you. My pleasure. You’ve been listening to the transformative leader podcast with her cannot. If you haven’t already, don’t forget to subscribe to the show so that you never miss an episode, and if you enjoyed this episode, would love to hear from you, leave a comment, rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to share the show with others who would benefit from our content? Don’t forget to visit our website at the Gap dot com to learn more about the ways in which we guide leaders and creating extraordinary cultures that deliver breakthrough results and unprecedented fulfilment. While you’re there, you can download our free e-book and of your series are making your culture transformation stick at the garou dot com culture book. As always, feel free to drop me a line at a mere at the garou dot com and connect with me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter. Until next time, may you boldly declare, courageously pursue an abundantly achieve the extraordinary.