Overcoming Your Addiction to Being Right

Paul Simkins talks with coach Jennifer Thornton about the impact of core values and the danger of always wanting to be right.

00:00 S2: The Tech Leader’s Toolbox Podcast is brought to you by Paul Simons and the bully LEAD program, focusing on helping tech leaders like you and the frustration of low-performing teams and losing excellent employees so they can increase productivity by 50%, go home on time and sleep better at night.

00:22 S1: Hello and welcome to the tech leaders toolbox in Paul Simpkins. And we’re here because how you lead today determines how your team succeed tomorrow, I want to assure you, you are definitely a leader, because leadership is all about influence, and the good leaders look for how they can always increase their positive influence with their team. And how do they do that? They do it by a commitment to grow each and every day, knowing that they have not perfected it, we worry a lot about addictions today, but have you ever thought about the addiction to being right? Certainly in a lot of social discourse out there today, we see that, and it’s a huge problem, and it’s a massive problem for leaders will… Our guest today is gonna talk about why that is such a problem and the consequence is that it can bring for you and some ways in which you may be able to get around that. Are you ready? Let’s go. With me today is Jennifer Thornton. Jennifer’s developed her expertise and talent strategy and leadership professional development over an exciting 20-plus year career as an HR professional. Jennifer has led international teams across Greater China, Mexico, the UK and the US, and she takes an unconventional approach to building innovative workforce development solutions for companies who are facing great through growth and accelerated hiring patterns.

02:11 S1: Jennifer is a sought after business strategist, specializing in startups and large value-based organizations. Jennifer lives in Texas with her family and her rescues, and in her free time she spends in historic preservation and remodeling her lake home. And we’ll have to find out more about that in a little bit. Jennifer, welcome to the show.

02:32 S2: Thank you, thank you for having me. So

02:34 S1: I’m gonna throw you a little curve right off the bat and unscripted curve, because again, as it did the research, saw that you mentioned your rescues, tell us about that.

02:43 S2: Well, if there is a dog in me, they always find my front door… Seriously, I have come home from work and there was this most amazing pitbull sleeping at my front door, I have no idea where she came from, her name is Tess, she still lives with us four years later, just incredible. But yeah, dogs have a tendency just to show up in my sphere, and if they need a large vat bill, they’re more likely to show up in front of me.

03:10 S1: So this is not something you went and saw it out… They just kinda show up and

03:14 S2: They do. They show up, but I’m very active in helping rescue… Continue on that rescue, so I think the universe just knows that put them at my friend or

03:23 S1: Word gets on the street, all the volos passing along, go to universe. Okay, great, so we’re getting to start off with, I love hearing journeys for me, again, everything’s about stories, and everybody has a story, so tell us is… Tell us about how you got where you are today.

03:44 S2: I love that question, I love that you start with that question, ’cause everyone’s journey is so unique, my journey started with just saying yes, so throughout my career, I worked domestically for years and years here in the US and through Canada, and one day out of the blue my chief HR office are called and I was like, Hey, do you wanna move to Hong Kong for a few months? And I’m like, Well, what do you want me to do when I get there? And he’s like, I’m actually not really sure. I just need you to go to Hong Kong and help us take over the division that was with a franchise partner, and we’re gonna take it back over and own and operate it, so I just need you to go and figure out what’s up and within that same second I said, Sure, I’ll move to Hong Kong. When do you want me there? And that started a journey where I really started to explore the international space, and what that did for me is it really taught me the ability to figure things out… To be a little bit more strategic, you get dropped off in a country you’ve never been to in a language you don’t understand, and you’re supposed to figure out a business that you do understand, but you don’t understand how it plays in that market, you start to build skill set, you never knew or possible had.


04:54 S2: And so I did that for about five years. It was incredible, I loved it, I worked in some amazing countries and made an amazing friends, and then through that experience, what I discovered is that executives need more help than I realized, They need help really understanding how to work together, how to work within a team. A board table full of executives can be dynamic, you had time zone changes, languages, cultures, it gets really dynamic really fast, and I learned so many skills of how to help executives work better as a team and how to get more out of their team and how to be really strategic of how we deploy work and how do we get that work done in an effective way, and so after five years of doing that, it’s all I wanted to do, so I started my own business, and that was several years ago, and today that’s what I do is I help companies really think about how to get the work done in the most effective way, but do in A where people are developing and growing and in rage.

05:54 S1: And I like that so much. Again, one of the things that kind of clicked with me was when I found that out, because part of my background is I used to travel around doing workshops, including with an organization I worked with, because they had business partners in the Far East, traveling around to Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, and all around that Pacific Rim area, doing workshops. So I like that again, he said he spent… I didn’t spend five years in one place, I was usually a week here, a week there at a time, but I identified a lot with what you said about challenges, the cultural differences. Now, during… What point of time were you in Hong Kong? Was that after the Chinese takeover?

06:42 S2: Yes, I was in… My first assignment was Hong Kong, and I looked over all the Greater China, so I was there for about five months, but continued over the next several years to go back and forth once a quarter for some time period that would have been… Gosh, 2016, 2017, maybe to think about those dates a little bit, but then what happened is once I was able to work with that business unit, then the company I work for decided to go into Mexico, so I went and lived in Mexico City for six months and then after that, the UK, and then as I opened the country, my area was the HR, I continued to oversee them and travel and spend time with them and just really help each country learn how to implement the values of our organization and our way of work, so that we have some consistency across that low…

07:32 S1: Terrific. So now, as I did some, of course had research and all that, I noticed that on your website, you identify your core values spelled out plainly there on a page, and of course, that’s a big thing with me is identifying your core values. How has that helped you reach people…

07:53 S2: That has helped me reach people because I’m always me, I’m always authentic, which is one of my core values, and I truly believe that every person performs better when they get to be fully themselves, and by putting my values out there, it is somewhat of a bill or for me, it’s somewhat of an opportunity to hold myself accountable, I have to always be honest, I have to always be authentic, I have to always be supportive and look at people and as humanity and not just as a person, but really getting to know them as people. And so what it’s done for me is it’s just given me that north star in my business, and it allowed me to be incredibly consistent as a leader.

08:36 S1: Okay, so what inspired you then to begin with to put the core values out there just because you wanted to lay it all out on the table or…

08:46 S2: Yeah, I wanted to lay it all out on the table. And I wanted people, if they were going to consider working with me, they needed to know how I work, and it also starts to build incredible relationships because from the very onset, people know that I’m gonna be really honest with them. And when I’m working with an organization, helping them really think about their talent strategy and how do they implement a true talent strategy plan… Honesty is at the core of our relationship. If I’m not honest with them, then I’m not doing a service to them, and so it was just really about building those relationships from the beginning, and when I’m making decisions, I lean into those. Sometimes we’re given a fork in the road and we have decision arb, and when we’re in the middle and we don’t know which way to go, I myself and I tell the people I work with, just go back to your core values, they will never let you down. You will always help you make the right decision, and so for me, it just builds better relationships, it allows me to be true to who I am, and it really allows me to make much better decisions for my clients and for myself.

09:48 S1: Exactly right, yeah. One of my favorite quotes is from actually Rosenthal for Odisha, he’s quoted as saying is, decision making is easy when you know what your values are. Yeah.

10:02 S2: Yeah, and it’s absolutely true. And when I’m working with high-level executives and they oftentimes, they’re pushed to work outside of their values, and so they feel like they just don’t feel right as a leader, or they’re talking about how they’re frustrated, or they’re mad or they’re angry, or they’re not engaged, and when we go back to their core values, oftentimes, they’re being asked to lead outside of their core values, so that is causing all of this emotion to come up where if they really knew where that was at, the motion would look and feel very different. And so as we work through the fact that, alright, you’re feeling this frustration and this anger and the stress because you’re not being you, and we get them to think about their job in a way that truly is them and leans into their values. They feel completely different about their job.

10:53 S1: So now listening in on one of the other podcasts that you and I heard you talk about some leaders having an addiction to being… Right. So is that a prolific problem, you know.

11:08 S2: I think it is a prolific problem and everyone has it a little bit to some degree, and so what research tells us and shows us when we have sugar or alcohol it or addicted to anything. We have a dopamine hit, well, when we are right, we also get a dopamine hit and it feels good, dopamine is our feel good chemical in our brain, and so I think all of us have been in a situation where we were… Got praised because we did something right, or we had a new idea and it was right, and all of these things, and we get this up, I mean, hit and it feels good and we like it. It encourages our minds to continue to stretch and be innovative because we’re getting rewards and form of dopamine when we are right, but as we know about all addictions, the more we get, the more we need. And so when you think about being addicted to being right, what happens is over time, as you need more and more of that dopamine hit, and so as people seem to go up in that corporate ladder that we all know so well, if you’re right, more and more then at this point where the fact that you have to hold on to that dopamine head, it’s so important to your ego and so important to who you are, and that feel good.

12:21 S2: Even when you’re wrong, you’ll start to say, No, I’m right. And it’s really the first step to thinking about a company or your career that’s going to stall out because if you’re not willing to be wrong, then you’re not willing to learn.

12:37 S1: And that seemed to be a really prevalent problem, not just with leaders, but it seemed to be all over. You look at a lot of the discourse going on social media and everywhere else, and everybody is just like, Hey, don’t confuse my opinion, fact, I’m right on this. And if I understand what you’re saying, it’s basically… It’s like a high… It’s like that you get that good feeling that high of being right and you get hooked on that and you’ve gotta be right no matter what, because your esteem can’t take anything else.

13:15 S2: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And I think all of us have known that person over a course of time and maybe work with long-term and early in their career, we’re like, Wow. They were still open-minded, I remember brainstorming with this person, I remember kinda thinking about the what-ifs that man, over the years, they really change, they don’t wanna hear my feedback anymore, they just make the decision without talking to other people or unilateral… Just making these decisions without all the facts, and that’s because over time, this person has got so addicted that dopamine hit, no one else can be right, because if they were right and that person was wrong, it would take away their drug… A choice. Basically, they’re dopamine.

13:54 S1: So then what are… What’s the result of that? What are the consequences of somebody just stick into their guns and they… On the boss and I’m right. And that’s it.

14:05 S2: Yeah, there’s so much… I think that some of the things that I see is that when you have a high level executive who’s really addicted to their views of things and they are being addicted to being right, they cannot hear customer feedback, and that’s a problem because the world is changing, so fast and so their customers may be saying, I want A B, C, but they’re like, No, I know you don’t want that, I think you need X, Y, Z. And so they’re making all of these decisions based on their true belief and not through the feedback of their customers and not through the feedback of those people who are closest to their customers, or not recognizing that the industry is changing, that all industries have never changed with the rapid pace that they change today, and if you wanna get addicted to how it’s always been and you’re addicted to, well, I did it this way two years ago, so it’s gonna work this year, you’re gonna be in trouble, ’cause the world is not that way anymore, every day is a new day in the way we’re living right now.

15:11 S1: And I would imagine too, that part of the issue that comes from that is, is it gets you into that, where again, you get blinders on, and as the old table goes, you fail to set the emperors not wearing any clothes.

15:25 S2: Yeah, you absolutely… You get these blinders. And one of the things I always like to refer back to as code code actually had the first digital camera, and when they brought it up and said, Hey, look at this new great technology. We have a digital camera. The people looking at that said, No, people will never want their pictures on a device, they’re always gonna wanna print their pictures or… That’s just silly. That would never happen. I would ever want that. Well, we all know the end of that story, but that is that addiction to thinking about how you’ve always thought is going to work for tomorrow, and then it doesn’t…

16:03 S1: Yes, Xerox is another good example of that is the story goes, Xerox was the one who created the mouse-driven interface for computers and all that, and Steve Jobs and Wozniak saw it as it was demonstrated to them by some people at Xerox and Xerox, I guess they tried to get… The management is zero to buy into that concept and marketing that computer in the Xerox management said, No, it’ll never fly. So Anakin jobs, we’re able to get a hold of it in the course… There goes Apple computers.

16:38 S2: Yeah, yeah, and just imagine that same, these two stories, but imagining it playing out in your work space, your team has this really great idea, and if you’re addicted being right, there is a likelihood that you have shot down a lot of ideas in the past, because if they don’t match what you believe to be true, then people are gonna stop telling you their ideas, so what if right now the person to the shore team has the perfect solution to your biggest problem, but they are too afraid to come and tell you that solution because they are afraid you’re gonna shoot them down, and then some day we could be telling these stories about your company where you have the opportunity to change the world, but you didn’t because you’re so right that no one had the strength to come in and say, Hey, look, at this a different way.

17:30 S1: Yeah, it’s a two side, I know, again, like you said, either either they quit bringing ideas to you because all you do is shoot them down right from the get-go, or the other is if they care to get political about it, they start figuring out ways to make it sound like it was your idea, ’cause you’re not gonna buy into it unless it’s your idea, and so now you can’t count on your people being honest with you because you’re gonna try and manipulate you again, and that’s not their intention, they just want their idea to be bought into, or had at least given a chance, but you’re making them become dishonest with you.

18:05 S2: Absolutely, so often I’ll be talking to someone and they’re frustrated with their team, and my team is not doing this and my team does that, and it’s always about the team, and my first question is, what actions do they… Do you display that they see consistently, that would cause them to act that way?

18:21 S1: Yeah, and when we talked about last week about this, I mentioned to you about… I’ve actually had… Managers tell me, I want you to fix them. Yes. Yeah, well, I know exactly where to start.

18:35 S2: Yes, you do it with the supervisor. Well.

18:39 S1: What else do you see leaders struggling with right now?

18:42 S2: I think one of the biggest things that leaders and actually everyone is struggling with right now is really understanding how to use language in today’s world to create trust. There’s a lot going on, and we’re in a really rapid changing environment, and so there’s a lot of fear that comes with that, and when we are in fear or primitive brain takes over, when it takes over, it actually shuts down the part of our brain that’s innovative the part of our brain that’s coming up with new ideas, the part of our brain that’s really making a difference in the workplace, and so as leaders oftentimes when we are in fear, we adapt a style that can be more of a dictator type style or a compliance management style, and that just pushes the other person to fear even more.

19:31 S1: And so the biggest struggle right now is how to use our language to create trust and not to create additional fear that we’re all already showing up with. Yeah, I think I’ve heard, I saw from years ago, a study that was done where it talked about comparing high achievers and low achievers, and one of the things I talked about, and one of the things you said set off that alarm on me is that low achievers tend to retreat back to rules and procedures, over achievement, over getting things done, it’s like, well, no, you didn’t follow the letter of the law on that, you know…

20:10 S2: Yeah, and our permanent brain has one job and that is to keep us alive, and back in early evolution, it kept us alive by keeping us in a tribe, they kept us in the cave, so the big monsters pre-story things didn’t come and grab us, but it still acts that way today, and today, our fear, if we lose our job, we may not be able to provide food for our family, which was the same fear we had an early evolution, the fear of not being able to provide food. And so when we are in that fear, all our brain wants to do is keep us alive, so it goes into a highly protective mindset and it starts making decisions for you only and not decisions for your team or decisions for your company, and it is the neuroscience of how the mind works, and we can’t change the neuro signs of how we’re all built, but we can change is how we talk to each other, to open up different parts of our mind and to decrease fear so that we get what we need, and we’re all on a collaborative work style… Well.

21:11 S1: And I would imagine though, a maturation in your leadership factors in that as well, ’cause again, we talk a lot about emotional intelligence that as that develops, ’cause what I hear you saying is what happens is we retreat back to surviving instead of thriving. Correct. And so somewhere in there have to become that rational thought process of, okay, look, is this really as dire as I think it is, what stories am I telling myself that are not true? Then how do I get past that?

21:49 S2: Yeah, and our mind is created to tell stories, it’s how it remembers facts and how things come in, and so if we’re in a high fear and someone says, Hey, I’m really confused by the email you sent me, if we’re in high fear, then our brain naturally goes to… Oh, I’m in trouble, I shouldn’t have said that. Note to self, never say that again. I was too on us all this stuff, but if we have a highly collaborative and a relationship around trust with that same person and they said the same thing like, Hey, I don’t understand that email, you’re like, Oh, I’m so sorry, let me help clarify. And the exact same language is you respond to it in two completely different ways, and it’s about the relationship you’ve built until that exact moment where you said, Hey, I don’t understand… This email you sent me, okay.

22:37 S1: So I noticed you are certified on conversational intelligence called IQ. What is that all about?

22:44 S2: Great, yeah, CQ is… It takes emotional intelligence to a different level, and so we talk a lot about emotional intelligence and understanding how people are responding to us or understanding how our actions affect others, but what it teaches us is really the neuroscience behind it, why are we responding the way we are what is actually going on from a chemical standpoint in our minds, so we can take that information and use it to build better relationships with CIT. What I do is I help individuals and teams learn how to change their language, understand each other differently and really start to up-regulate language that creates trust and down-regulate language that causes fear, and when teams are able to move into collaborative trust environment, the productivity… The results, all of those things go to a whole new level.

23:42 S1: So I mentioned like emotional intelligence earlier… How does this relate to that?

23:47 S2: So an emotional intelligence, we talk a lot about connecting with the individual or understanding how that individual is taking, responding to us and how sensitive are we to others and those types of things. Conversation intelligence then teaches us what to do with that information, and so it’s really around practical applications, practical understanding how to truly change our language, we can say everything we need to say to someone, but we have choices on how we say it and how we say it either create sphere or creates trust. And so with conversation intelligence, when teams really get under that microscope and think how can I create trust and how can I create an honest work environment, the changes, it changes people lives, our words create our world, and the words that are around us and how we’re taking that in is creating how we think about any situation…

24:47 S1: No, this is very curious. It’s got my curiosity going up, years ago, I went through training in crucial conversations, and hearing some similarities in there in terms of, again, making conversation safe, how you communicate with other people to create a safe environment. Where there’s a free exchange. She said.

25:11 S2: Yeah, and with crucial conversations, it’s about that conversation, and with it, it’s really about relationship building so that those crucial conversations go a lot better, and so when you think about our conversations, if 80% of the time those conversations are a push-pull, I’m asking you information, I’m giving you information back, we’re exchanging. And so we’re building rapport, we’re building trust, we’re listening to each other, we’re learning from each other, and so that’s happening 80% of the time, and then something goes wrong and you have to have a critical conversation with someone, that relationship and all of that work, you did up to that has created your mind to say, Oh, I’m gonna get feedback and you’re right, I do have opportunities to learn, and how can I learn, but if we don’t have… We even build that relationship going up to it, then that’s feedback we give or that critical conversation, it sounds a lot different and that person is taking it in a lot differently.

26:15 S1: Right. Alright, so finally, Jennifer, what one tip or one thing a leader can do or apply today to add value to their team…

26:27 S2: I thought a lot about this, and I love that. You always ask this question. I think what a leader could do today is in today’s world that’s changing, we need a lot of new ideas, so what I would recommend to everyone is to have what I call the craziest idea ever meeting, and go out to your team and tell them, we’re gonna talk about how the market, this new product, and I don’t want you to think about your ideas, Oh, that’s too far-fetched, or that might not work. I want you to come with the most insane idea you can ever imagine, and I want you to show up with it, and in fact, I’m gonna give an award to the person who comes up with the most outlandish crazy idea, that idea probably won’t work in this crazy, not Landis, but that’s okay. We wanna give awards, and what that does is it tell someone, I can think so big without being judged, and when you go into a meeting like that and you get all of the most insane crazy ideas, you’ll actually be surprised how many of them actually might work how many of them at some point could play in, but because we set in fear when we ideate because we’ll be judged for our ideas, we play it safe, and when teams are playing it safe, they cannot market, they cannot push that new product or be innovative, and so the crazy idea meetings really push that innovation and they’re a lot of fun, and especially when you’re giving out awards for the most outlandish idea, like people come to you specifically with some really crazy stop, so it just brings energy up, it brings excitement up and it really opens the mind to coming up with fresh and new ideas…

28:03 S2: Well.

28:03 S1: That’s great, I love that. Have been a brainstorm facilitator for many years, and just that the same idea is open up the picket to let everything flow. Let’s see. Yeah, I love it. Great. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much for being on the show today.

28:18 S2: Thank you. While you’re here, take a moment right now to subscribe to the tech leaders toolbox podcast and leave a review that way, you will always be up-to-date on the bold and innovative leadership principles we are sharing here. And come join the tech leaders toolbox Facebook group as well, where you and other leaders discuss these concepts in more detail and we answer your questions, subscribe today and share this with your friends.

28:52 S1: Alright, we’re back. And for this portion of the show again, I am a huge fan of outdoor cooking, I love any kind of outdoor cooking you can do… I have a smoker, I have a grill, and I do a lot of stuff on that. And having a lot of fun this summer with that, and because of my background is I love to camp, so I do a lot of cooking over open fire, a lot of stuff with dutch ovens and so forth, and I’ve gone out and I’ve actually created a Facebook group for others who like outdoor cooking like I do, and it’s called Smoke and ash… The smoke and ash Facebook group, me and all of my friends are out there. We share recipes, we share gadgets, we share our cooking, what kind of cookers were using and all that, and a lot of people with a report on the weekend, Here’s what I’m making this weekend, and again, a lot of recipes out there, and so if you’re into that kind of stuff, you wanna join us, it’s called Smoke and ash, and you can come out and join us on there, and so as part of the show, I always wanted to share an outdoor cooking recipe, and when I have a guest, I give them an opportunity if they have a favorite recipe.

29:59 S1: They can share that as well. And Jennifer, you said you had one you wanted to share with us what we were making…

30:05 S2: Yeah, we are making smoked baked potatoes today. Okay, tell us all about how that works, so one of the secrets of the best smoked baked potatoes is to really scrub the skin really good, so it gets kind of then… Then you take really high quality olive oil, roll your potatoes and that olive oil, salt and pepper, and then I wrap them up and foil, and then about halfway through smoking your brisket or whatever you’re smoking through those big potatoes in… And when they come out, they have that smoky flavor, they’re just soft and they are fantastic with all that salt and pepper that kinda gets into the skin and goes into the actual potato, they’re fantastic or my favorite thing to make when were on holiday weekends with the family.

30:54 S1: So now you don’t pierce the skin or anything, you just wrap up and foil and put them in there, how long do they have to go for you usually…

31:02 S2: Oh, that’s a great question. A couple of hours, we usually do it halfway, one of the verses gonna be on for six hours, we throw them in at three hours and we set them kind of off to the side, not under the fire, but off to the side, and let them go for a few hours and they’re always a hit and everyone’s favorite.

31:20 S1: Okay. Oh, and you’re in Texas, so you probably do a lot of risk, get down there and…

31:25 S2: Yeah, a lot of risk at cooking, a lot of ribs, all of those things.

31:30 S1: I had a guest on a while back from… Who lives in Texas now, but he’s originally from Louisiana. What he shared was, how to make a grilled roasted Dove.

31:46 S2: Oh, I’ve never heard of doing that.

31:49 S1: That was all a wall, but I love that idea that a potato… That’s something everybody loves. And I would imagine you can even take something like that and even after you smoke to make potato salad with it.

32:01 S2: Or outlier to spake potatoes, take that big, nice smoky flavor and then take all the potato out and match those and put them back into the skins and bake ’em and make twice baked potatoes, they’d be fantastic that way too.

32:16 S1: Terrific. So Jennifer is alright, if we share that recipe out on the Spoken Ash Facebook group with everyone.

32:22 S2: Absolutely.

32:23 S1: Great, well, and that’s where you’ll be able to get it, folks, is come out to the smoke and ash Facebook group, you can get the recipe out there, or just send an email to me at TL toolbox at boldly lead dot com, and we’ll get that out to you alright, so this week, our guest was Jennifer Thornton, a talent strategy and leadership professional who with worldwide influence and experience, who loves to help clients build talent strategies that complement their business strategies to ensure exponential growth. Jennifer, what are you excited about that you’re working on right now?

33:01 S2: One of the things I’m working on right now that I’m most excited about is really thinking about the adult learner in today’s space and how do we help them learn and develop their own leadership skills. And so over the last two years, I’ve been working on a virtual leadership academy, and it’s very much specifically designed for the adult learner and specifically designed to provide drip content, and we’ve also designed it so that the supervisor participates in the learning, the peer participate in the learning and also the facilitator, obviously is participating, but it’s been really exciting to see some of the adult learning strategies that we’ve put into the leadership development academy start to come to life. Terrific.

33:45 S1: So now somebody wants to find out more… They wanna get a hold of you, what’s the best way to do that?

33:50 S2: They can check out the website at 3-04 coaching dot com, and that’s 304 coaching dot com, or reach out to me on LinkedIn, you can find me at Jena Horton ACC.

34:02 S1: Great, well, Jennifer, inch again, thank you for being on the show today and for the recipe that you shared with this as well…

34:09 S2: Thank you for having me, it was a pleasure.

34:10 S1: Alright, so folks, that’s about it for this week, if you’re listening on a podcast app, be sure to subscribe to the podcast, and also if you have the opportunity to leave us a five-star review so that what you’re enjoying hearing other people have the opportunity to hear as well, and of course, if you have anything you’d like us to talk about on the tech leaders tool box, all you have to do is send me an email at TL toolbox at boldly lead dot com, and we’ll address that subject or again, you can go out to our Facebook group, the tech leaders tool box, and you can post your questions out there, and also we extend the discussions of what we talk about on the show out on that Facebook group, so… That’s it until the next time. Go out and be the leader. You were meant to be


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