The Neuroscience of Leadership and Education Today

0:00:05.0 S1: Franze and Friends… Informative, entertainment, edgy. Where leaders come to share their secrets. Now, here’s your host Jay Franze. We are coming at you live. I am Jay Franze and I am here with the Yogi to my Bobo. Mr. Keith Sensing. Sir, how are you? Alright, what up Jay? Were also here with our park ranger Ms. Mindy Joe. Mindy, how are you?

0:00:47.8 S2: I’m fantastic, Jay, fantastic. Alright, I was waiting for that que music. Love it. Ask and you shall receive, right. Okay, so this day in history, April 5, 1904, some fun facts here. I found that the first international Rugby League was established created this day in history. And what’s so special about that is my younger brother, he’s 10 years younger to me, he played rugby in high school. He actually lives in the UK. And today, ready for this connection? Is my mom’s birthday. So our mom’s birthday is today, so I thought, Okay, let’s just bring it all home. So Happy birthday, mom. I love you.

0:01:45.0 S1: Happy Birthday Ms. Mindy’s mom. Happy Birthday rugby mom. That’s right. Keith, sir, what position did you play on that team? Couch. There you go. I was the left couch back. Alright, Ms. Mindy. There you go. To Night folks, we are very excited, we have an executive coach with us to talent strategist in an HR professional. We have Ms. Jennifer Thornton. Ms. Jennifer, how are you?

0:02:15.0 S2: I’m good. How are you guys tonight?

0:02:16.9 S1: I’m very good. Couldn’t be better. Glad you’re here. Why don’t you just go ahead and kick us off by telling us a little bit about what this 304 coaching is.

0:02:27.3 S2: Here at 304 Coaching, we focus on talent strategies. We like to work with organizations that are growing, that are looking into the future and thinking about where is their business going. And then how do they design a talent strategy that matches up with their business strategy. So we help them go through that process, figure all that out, and then we bring in programs to help educate their leadership to ensure that they stay on the path that they wanna be in.

0:03:00.5 S1: When you say programs, are these programs that you and your organization have designed or are these programs that you’re bringing in from a third party?

0:03:07.6 S2: We design all of our programs. We work with organizations to think about what is their competencies and skills. We don’t cookie cut anything because every company has unique needs. We bring in leadership academies designed to their objectives. But, what makes ours different is we focus on the neuroscience of the mind. How to bring in neuroscience and understand the brain when we’re actually leading. Because a lot of our best practice leadership skills actually create fear in the mind, they were designed in the Industrial Revolution before we really knew much about the brain. So we bring brain-based science into the room and use that as a foundation to build off of.

0:03:51.2 S1: Go ahead and give us a few examples if you don’t mind. Especially because we have Keith on our program, right. So Keith is a little brain twisted. So tell us what we can do here.

0:04:02.8 S2: When you think about leading, one of the things that we help people understand, and I hope that your listeners start to think about as a leader, one of your number one goals is to remove fear from the conversation and from the workplace. And that is not easy to do, because as humans, we are hard-wired to stay safe, to stay in the cave, and we do that through fear, our body creates that fear chemical in us. And so when you’re in the room and your boss has this great idea and you’re like, “That’s not gonna work” and you’re too scared to be honest, that’s what happens, right? And we can all be in that room, and we’ve all been in that room before, and so removing fear is what’s important. You have to do that through changing your language.

It can be as simple as when someone comes to with an idea you could say “Well, that’s a horrible idea, That’s not gonna work”. Or you could say, “You know what, I don’t see it. But change my mind”.

And what that does is it opens up a conversation. It lets people say “I don’t see it, but that’s okay”, because every idea is something that’s been brought to the table. When I say that to my team, sometimes they actually change my mind and I always learn something and that’s what’s important as a conversation and taking the business forward. So those are just some of the very small little things you can start to do to use a neuroscience of the brain, to use your language to start to reduce fear in the workplace.

0:05:35.8 S1: Wow, I love the whole neuroscience thing that you’re bringing as a service. Now, I know the hot debate, I’m in the instructional design world, and that hot debate is over the learning styles. Kinesthetic and all of that. Then a few years ago, a neuroscience paper came out and it’s like, the brain doesn’t work that way. Now, as far as leadership goes, I mean, do some of your techniques and services meet with resistance.

0:06:10.4 S2: Oh, absolutely. What training doesn’t. That’s part of the fun part of it. Everyone’s resistant to change. Change is difficult. We’re not built to enjoy change so it’s interesting. A lot of times people want to hold on to the way of work, they wanna hold on to how they’ve always done it, then they’ll wanna talk to me about all their problems. I always love the phone call from the CEO who’s says “my team doesn’t make decisions on their own, my team doesn’t do this, my team doesn’t do that,” and my first question after they complain is, “What about your leadership made all that possible?”

0:06:54.5 S1: That’s the first step. So any other techniques on proving that I’m right. No, hold on, I’m sorry, let me rephrase that. Are there any other techniques that you use that help management or a company kind of see the correct path?

0:07:25.5 S2: Yeah, so I think there is a lot of different directions you can go. And as an instructional designer, you know that, you kinda have the path you think, which is never the path you end up on, it’s always a different one, and I think a lot of it is the techniques of just bringing the truth to the table when people struggle to assume that it’s about them, oftentimes, I start talking to them about, when did things change? When did things become different for you? And let’s talk about what was going on in your leadership or your life or your company at that time, and a lot of times what’s interesting is we can start to pinpoint crisis and the company… And when we’re in crisis, we crisis manage, which is appropriate ‘building’s on fire – get out’ there’s no collaboration, there’s no conversation, let’s do it. But what happens is when we’re in crisis mode, and we do that, we can get in the habit of it, and we start to tear down relationships when the fire goes out, but we continue to lead that way. And you look back to 2020, early 2020, there’s a ton of crisis management, everyone’s just trying to figure it out, and what I’m seeing now on the phone calls I’m getting is a lot of people are continuing to do that, and they’re continuing to be highly directive because they are in fear or they’re just in this habit, so it’s one of the things I work on with people individually is when they are struggling, where in their life did crisis come in, and how did that impact their relationships, ’cause they may have damaged relationships, they may just have relationships that change, there’s a myriad of reasons, but you can usually figure it out if you do follow the timeline, so…

0:09:09.9 S2: Jennifer, what’s coming to my mind? Okay, so I’m a life coach, but during the day, my day job is I’m a middle school teacher, and when you’re saying that fear, immediately I’m thinking of the classroom and more so when I was growing up and in school, and I had some great teachers. But I remember I had a few of those teachers, especially in middle school, in high school, where it was very much a fear, you feared your leader, you feared your teacher, you kept your mouth shut, and you just learned what they told you to learn, and you do not question authority. So how do we close that gap? Although I do feel like as a society, as a culture, we’re doing better with that in the classrooms that K through 12 and even that college setting. But how do we close that gap? Like I’m already seeing like… I’m seeing you doing professional development trainings for teachers at a PD day to 12 type scenarios, so how do we do that, how do we close that gap? So it doesn’t end up where we’re waiting until that business… Time of crisis. Yeah, so what we have to always remember is fear and innovation are your left and right, your northern South, they come together.

0:10:28.9 S2: And so when we are educating children, we expect perfectionism, we expect straight As, we expect that you’re perfect in everything that we ask you to do, which really isn’t possible as humans, right. There’s very few people that are good at everything they touch, and so what happens are very early is when we are teaching people to be a perfectionist or a straight-A student, what we’re teaching them is not to get in trouble and not to fail and not to take chances, and then you think about that in the workplace, you start to have those in the workplace, and if I’m your boss, I don’t wanna get in trouble, so you have to be perfect, so I’m perfect. And we get involved in his perfectionism, and that perfectionism decreases innovation because you can’t innovate without the chance of failure. And so I think that’s such an important piece, especially when you’re working with children, if they move the needle, celebrate it, if they blow it up, but then figure out a way to put it back. Better, celebrate that because we celebrate perfectionism, we don’t celebrate creativity and breaking it and putting it back together and questioning it, or saying, I just wanna build a better will, ’cause maybe I could…

0:11:45.8 S2: And I think that’s the big piece that we have to think about, and we just get caught up. I agree with you, especially on those grades, when you’re saying straight as, you have to do this, you have to do that, and we don’t allow our students to fail… It’s okay to fail, it’s okay to learn from those lessons. I will say this my first… My MBA program, so my first Master’s program in Business Administration, it was all great based, and to the point of A minus was just a little less than an A, and they actually looked at all that GPA. And then when I had taken my master’s in education program, it was a pass fail, and that blew everyone’s mind, like coming in as adult students were like, pass fail. What is this really… Even my employer like, wow, what is happening? You… But yes, why do we put so much stock in that… Great portion. What about what we’re learning? And I’ll tell you what I learned more from that program than any schooling I had ever had just because they were encouraging that change in that innovation, so… Oh, I love what you’re saying.

0:12:58.8 S2: Love it. I remember the… You think back on your life. In the year I remember the most about my classroom, it was the fifth grade with the coolest teacher, we all had jobs, we all got a paycheck every month, we had these little… Of course, we had check books ’cause that tells you how old I am, we had her little check book and we got our girls, and we all had different bills, some people had higher mortgages than others, and we all had different paychecks, you started to learn that things were not the same everywhere. We learned calligraphy sign language. I still know sign language today because of that classroom, and he basically put the books in the corner, and we learned how to do things, and I again, learned more that year than I ever did, and here we are all these decades later, and I’m talking about it, but that’s the kind of things I’m talking about when you try to educate children, let them figure it out and celebrate that progress…

0:14:01.3 S1: No, that’s awesome. Absolutely, I’m an 11-year-old who’s very big into sign language right now as well, outside of the school system, so I don’t know where she’s getting it from, we’re talking about education and his mind mentions education and even the past fail way of grading. I know that one of the executive programs that I went through was Pascal, it was based on participation, so either you participated or you didn’t… While we discuss education, kinda give us your opinion on the way you see education in the workplace these days.

0:14:33.2 S2: Alright, so my opinions. So I have a lot on the subject or to start, right? What’s so okay. So here’s a fun fact, or, boom, I’m not a college graduate. I wanted to start working in the mall like I wanted to work in the mall like I was a kid of the 90s, and that was my dream, and by gosh, dreams came true. And I started working in the mall, and at 19 years old, I was making hiring decisions, I was running a multi-million dollar store, I was dealing with scheduling and conflict, and I was done with all kinds of things, and I loved it, and I did go to college at least, but I dropped out ’cause I wanted to get promoted at the mall ’cause that was a lot cooler than going to college in my mind, and so that’s what I did. And it’s interesting because I am a learner. Before the show, we were talking about… I collect books, I am always in a program, every single year, I commit to taking a certification program, I hated traditional school. Hated it, but I am a learner. And working at the mall and paid off, I started working in the malls.

0:15:48.8 S2: And when I left retail, I was a head of international HR for a 4 billion dollar company, so I guess I figured it out along the way. But I think that going into the workplace, allowing people to make decisions, allowing people to figure things out, again, kinda going back what we talked about with the kids, again, when you go into the workplace, you’re given a singular task, do this, don’t do that, and we don’t allow people to play, we don’t allow them to try new things and to be a part of the conversation. And I think that when you’re a part of the conversation in the workplace, big, small, whatever, but at least part of a conversation that’s education, that’s understanding the business that’s getting in and thinking about how do I make decisions, it will make this place a better work environment or maybe increase the cells or whatever we do, I believe in higher education, I believe in all that, but it’s not the path for everyone, and it certainly wasn’t for me, and so… Yeah, so that’s a very different, I guess, kind of you… For myself and my own experiences that I got really lucky that I was thrown into leadership at a really young age, and so it was singer, swim and again, I was gonna work at the mall, so I was gonna figure it out.

0:17:08.4 S1: I’ll tell you, I work in the security industry, and one of my clients was the mall, and that was by far my favorite client, I don’t know what it is about the mall, and it was my favorite clients. I love to go in there, I love walking around the mall and talking to the management from each one of the individual stores and there was always a blast. And then, of course, you have the food court, so you can’t beat that.

0:17:30.7 S2: I had six elite.

0:17:32.2 S1: You go. Now, you just got keys attention, the three of us here have gone through traditional traditional paths for education, but we’ve also gone through the non-traditional passive education, and as much as I find value in both of those, I really find more value in the non-traditional and the reason I feel that way is because you’re typically learning what you want to learn, so if you feel like you have a need to learn something, you go after it, you learn it, and you’re usually more passionate about that, where if you’re… In a traditional form of education, you’re learning what they think you should be learning, so a lot of times you don’t have that interest, so I can definitely understand that. But when you were at the mall and when you were getting these leadership opportunities, let’s kind of discuss that, you said you start to learn how to do scheduling and you started to learn how to get more involved in the administrative side. So what did you learn and who are you learning it from?

0:18:27.7 S2: So I think that in that time in period, we learned from our district managers or store managers, and the industry was all about this transfer of knowledge, and that’s the other thing I don’t think we do a lot. Well, in a traditional corporate environments, transfer of knowledge, and we sometimes transfer knowledge, I was not the good stuff that we transfer, but if you had a district manager, they had been kind of a store manager or an assistant manager, and they give you that transfer of knowledge so I think that that was incredibly helpful. I think that’s who I learned from… What I do think about that statement that I’m gonna talk about both sides of my mouth right now is, though, that’s how I kind of learned… I think in today’s world, one of the future competencies is being able to lead teams that do jobs that you don’t know how to do, and I think that’s when you think about where we’re going and leadership, I think that’s really important, because things change too fast, so if I was a UX designer five years ago, and now I’m leading a team of UX designers, what I did five years ago was obsolete, so I may not know what they do, and how do I leave people not really understanding what they do every day.

0:19:44.9 S2: So I think that was how I learned was kind of that transfer of knowledge and a lot of failure… Right. Again, it was some days I got it right and we had an amazing day and I had the right people, they are the right times, and other days I didn’t, I got much better at. And that’s a skill that I think that every leader has to know how to make a really, really great hiring decision, and a lot of that comes from practice, and so there’s just a lot of practice and a lot of fun. Oh my gosh, I love KPIS and chasing those numbers every day.

0:20:16.9 S1: Pace. So guys, yeah, I know about education. I was one of those students that never made a B straight As all the way, then when… No, actually, when I think about it, I never made as either… I was waiting for a war, the page know education and transfer of knowledge is very important to keep people engaged now, as far as company culture goes, What else is there… Alright, besides keeping everybody engaged in education, are there any other concepts behind healthy company cultures?

0:21:01.0 S2: I think on that same line, one of the things I love when a company makes learning cool, when you have executives who maybe have executive coaches or talk about programs they are in, or past programs they were in, or why they chose to go to a conference because they really wanted to learn more about X. And so when you have a group of leaders actively learning, what that says to everyone on the team is, we are just a learning being, we’re all learning, we’re all in here. Moving forward together, I don’t know at all. You don’t know at all. And that’s okay. And when you start to see executives act that way, what happens is everyone underneath them, ’cause again, the culture is just how we act, it’s not what’s on a piece of paper. It becomes cool, right? It’s like, Oh man, I wanna take this because you know, my CEO was talking about A program he took… I found this one and I could take it, and then it starts conversations and all of a sudden that’s how we act, we’re all in a constant state of learning, and I think that’s really powerful for a company when they create a culture where learning is cool.

0:22:09.2 S1: And respected. That’s very cool. Wow, that’s good. I like that. I really do like that. A lot of training departments are… It’s always second hand, kind of… Yeah, but it’s kind of hard to… Especially when education and learning comes into play, just getting that sense of accountability down to where some of this training that we’re giving you helps the company from being compliant and avoiding legal issues. And again, some people are like, Yeah, yeah, okay. Taking it or don’t take it. You really gotta go out and do this stuff instead. Go do your job. So do you run into that a lot with any companies that you consult and how do you… What’s your techniques again, for getting them to see the light, and I’m gonna start taking notes on this one.

0:23:09.1 S2: So one of the things that we don’t do are the Chevy in the room for three days and think you’re gonna come out a different person program. That happens way too much, and when people call me and they’re like, We’re gonna have a conference and we’re gonna have 100 people there and we want you to do this and afterwards… And I’m like, That ain’t could happen. I’m sorry. It’s just not gonna happen. Adults don’t learn that way, catheter in a room for three days and change their personalities, like open the window throughout the money, and then be just as frustrated as you were the day before, but just don’t have as much beland. So we talk to companies about how do you actually create behavior change, and there’s no silver bullet, but what we do here in our change model is we look at competencies and skills, and they are two different things, and what competencies do we need in this organization or this position, what skills do we need? Then that’s like the traditional training, say this, don’t say that, here do this, don’t do this, then we also talk about coaching if they can…

0:24:23.0 S2: They have a coach in the program. Or we always put it what we call self-coaching questions in every module we create, and that’s the mental work… Why change my behavior? What’s in it for me? And so we try to come up with questions that a coach might ask you, So if we’re doing a workshop on influential conversations, then part of those self-coaching questions may be, Where am I struggling in relationships? And when I look at that conversation in my directing or influence and getting them to start to see that, Hey, if I change my behaviors, what could be in it for myself, my team, my business, then with every module, we have what we call implementation work, which is you know, the homework, but really taking that and applying it, and so they’re learning technical competency skills, they’re doing the mental work, and then they’re doing it physically, and we love to come in and do that six and 12 months periods, so that every single month they learn something, they apply it, we come back and we talk about what they did with it, and what worked and what didn’t work, and then we learn a little bit more than out we go.

0:25:33.8 S2: And then we do the work and then we come back and we go out with some more… So over time, we’re seeing change because they’re not being overloaded, we find that that works for what we do, again, I can’t change personalities in 72 hours, and if I could I be a millionaire, I mean a bazillion are… Yeah, so it sounds very individualized, very differentiated, that’s why I’m here a lot of differentiation there based on the person, do you create or design your own personality assessments to start… I’d like to know where they’re at, or do you just use a Myers-Briggs disc? How do you see… Where do you start? To help them get to know themselves, get a little more self-awareness, Medical vision. So we use two different tools, one of them is OAD organization analyst and design, I’m sure most of you haven’t heard of it, it’s a very boutique assessment, highly validated, and with the IO psychologists on staff that continues to re-validate the studies and continuously watch his language and how language evolves, ’cause that will impact your assessment, and we actually are distributors of that here at 304, and then we also…

0:26:50.6 S2: I’m also certified through Gallup, and so we use string finders, and so one is a trait-based, so detailed decision style adaptability, the other one’s more kind of fun little strength-faced, and so applying traits and strings together gives you kind of a full picture of someone and we start with those two. Very nice question for you. It’s related, but I have to know talent cliff. So you said how to avoid the talent Cliff, and I have to know what this is about, as you try to align the talent to the business strategies… Yes, yeah, so the talent Cliff was what happens way too often in high-performing start-ups, so you get a bunch of really crazy smart people together, you get a really crazy, amazing idea and you go to market with… And good news, it takes off, and no one wakes up one day and just says, I’m gonna hire the best people and we’re gonna do something… No, you create a service or a widget and you gotta hire people to make it come to life, so when the business starts to take off, what people traditionally do is they only chase the business, they only chase the cells, the what’s the next product, and they don’t…

0:28:05.5 S2: Add a talent strategy on that, and they’re not building the capabilities of their leadership as quickly, if not quicker than the company is growing, so then what happens is the cells outpace the skills of the leaders. Then we go into crisis mode, then we’re all yelling at each other, we’re all in fear, we’re all directive, your good people walk out on you, the yes or no man people stay, and that is never a good place to only have those people on to the team. So your talent goes off the cliff and the business is right after it.

0:28:35.0 S1: Wow. Alright, folks. Well, we have reached the end of the half, and when we reach the end of the half, we turn this into a round table discussion, we’re gonna go head and turn the microphone over to Keith, he is gonna go ahead and facilitate a conversation between the three of us, he is gonna go ahead and field any questions that have come in through the internet, and he’s always gonna pick a topic and he’s gonna throw that our way and we will see what we can do with it, so Keith, sir… All you All right, Jay, thank you very much. And as always, we’re coming at you live twice a week on Monday and Wednesday, even on the west coast… 10 on the East Coast. That’s right. It’s about three hour difference, I think. That’s good. So guys, as always, we have Mr. J. France with us, an experienced VP of Operations, author, speaker and leadership coach, as well as Ms. Mindy Joe, M-E-D, MBA, certified life coach, founder of worry about you today. And are esteemed guest. Ms. Jennifer has developed her expertise and talent strategy and leadership professional development over her exciting 20 plus years as an HR professional.

0:29:48.2 S1: And thank you for joining us on the show tonight, guys. So I know Jennifer has a concept called The Seven Deadly Sins of Leadership. We discussed before the show, Jay bind and I, and we came up with our four kind of sins about leadership, and we want a compare and contrast of what you have… Our first deadly sin. It’s gonna be arrogance. So Jay, I want you to do kick us off on why arrogance can be detrimental to the leader. Alright, well, I think, again, I mentioned is just when somebody feels superior to somebody else, and we as leaders, we can’t come into it feeling superior to somebody else, everybody holds a certain position within an organization, they’re usually holding that position, kinda like what Jennifer said earlier, that you’re holding a position based on your skill, and as leaders, we might not possess that skill, so therefore in their world, they might hold it by our skill than we do, so our role is different than theirs, so just like again, she mentioned working in a mall where we have our regional managers who might be training the local management teams, so everybody within an organization has a particular role and there’s no room in the leadership team to feel that you are superior to anybody else, and if you do…

0:31:12.4 S1: That’s when you don’t get the buy-in from your team. That’s when people seem to fall out and things kind of fall apart.

0:31:20.2 S2: Well, and with feeling superior comes that to where they’re gonna tear others down, and that is never, okay, as a leader, we should be lifting others up and as leaders, we should be so confident, not arrogant, but confident in our roles that it’s okay for all of us to shine, there’s plenty of room for all of us to shine. Right. Also, I take it a step back and I think of pride. So thinking of those Deadly Sins and thinking of pride, and pride is just feeling good about a job well done, however, what happens as an organization, when it becomes complete, we… We start to feel complacent or we start to feel that, Well, we’re doing a good job, so we’re just gonna keep this train moving like it is, and we’re not gonna try to be innovative or find new ways to do things or to take care of our talent, and our people… Because people are our greatest asset. Period, in my opinion. So we need to make sure that that pride doesn’t turn into an arrogance and where we lose sight of what we’re trying to accomplish and keeping our people engaged and on track with our vision, so that’s all very important as well.

0:32:43.4 S2: Oh, I love all that, and I agree that that arrogance is kind of a close cousin of overused pride, and I also think that pride comes in place where if we’re not willing to listen to others or willing to hear other people’s ideas because we’re so prideful that our ideas are the best, and that no one has a better idea than we do, and we make every decision the best out of anyone in the room, then if you’re the only one making a decision, you only have… You can only have a select number of facts, you don’t have facts that everyone has in the room collectively, and I think that pride, fullness being over-used is the inability to hear other people’s ideas and to get overly attached to yours, and obviously, we don’t always make the best decisions.

0:33:36.6 S1: I always make great decisions throughout my life, I’ve always made… Just write decisions each time, or only decision is What time do you go to the coach, what time do I go to to couch and what time do I get my Apple and Carmela, which is at 80 o’clock after the show. Alright, so you think arrogance kind of closely correlates with pride in your seven deadly sins concepts, so here’s our number two that we think is a deadly sin of management, and that is micro-management… Micro-managing Jay. Alright, I don’t like it. I know you love to do it. Yes, I hope so. Well, like you mentioned, I think it stems from fear, so if somebody’s typically micromanaging somebody, it’s fear, it’s either fear that their superiors aren’t gonna like the product that you’re putting out, or maybe you’re asking your team member to be doing something that’s a little bit above their head that maybe you should be focusing on, but I think if we look at it from our point of view as a leader, what we should be focusing on is the opportunity to teach somebody another skill, so we should be teaching our team members how to do something that’s how we build our team, that’s how we develop the person for the next step, if we’re not doing that, we’re failing as leaders, so let’s forget the fear and let’s jump into the development and actually develop somebody, because the biggest fear people think is, Oh my God, if I teach them how to do that, they’re gonna take my job, and that’s just not the case, it hardly ever works that way, so we should be focusing on the development of our team.

0:35:16.6 S2: I agree, and I wanna take it back to what Jennifer was saying earlier about the safety, it… You wanna feel safe. Any time I have been micro-managed, which has been very few times in my… Very fortunate in my professional career. For me, Jennifer, this is actually a second career teaching as I was in the corporate environment before that, and I was very blessed to not be micromanaged ’cause we need to feel safe and we did feel trusted as employees, and the leaders need to feel they can trust their people, it’s a two-way street, we have to feel that we can trust each other and have that safe environment and have that freedom to fail, it’s okay again, to learn those lessons and to see how you can add to the vision and how you can be innovative or innovative and create those efficiencies. And same thing with the leadership, like leadership has to trust their teams for all to work together. You trust your talent. Same thing with my kiddos. A lot of times they’ll say, Can I go ahead and type it out like this is real… They’re scared of like, Please, I’m not telling you.

0:36:25.7 S2: I said As long as it gets done, this is the result that I’d like to see something else over here, the right answer somewhere we’re here, but how you get there? That’s your process. That’s your thought process, if I wanna encourage and help develop your thought process, not… You discourage you and stifle you. That’s terrible. I think you’re both absolutely correct. I think that micro-management comes from a myriad of directions, I think it comes from fear, like Jay talked about, that it’s just a fear that you’re gonna mess up and then I’m in trouble or you’re gonna take my job and there’s all this head trash around that, I think that when you’re micro-managed, you do our constant state of fear, in fact, at a coaching session today with an executive who has a new C-suite and they email in sometimes a day needing updates or… She’s like, I’m a vice president, I’m kind of busy during the day on time. Right, and so he does all this fear or had around this new boss and all these questions, but I think there’s a third place it also comes from… And I think it’s gonna be different for every person.

0:37:33.2 S2: And so oftentimes, especially some high level executives who again, have been rewarded for being right over the years, and they’ve gotten a little addicted to that dopamine hit when we’re right, we… Goldfields, good, we like that. And so over time, these people who get addictive, that dopamine hit are so right that they actually need to tell people how to do their jobs even if they don’t know how to do it, and I see that all the time, and I actually call it a little bit of a sloth, I’m not gonna do your job. But I’m gonna tell you how to do it, even though I have no idea how to do it. And so I think that’s a third place it comes from when it comes from micromanaging, and I love that we can see it coming from multiple directions, because when you’re dealing with it, you have to explore why you can’t make assumptions that you know where it comes from, you have to explore the reason why it’s showing up and then deal with that reason, because if you deal with that reason, then we start to loosen up on that and we start to create that trust.

0:38:34.8 S1: I absolutely love, love the term head trash, by the way, just throw that out there as… That’s funny.

0:38:43.0 S2: But I honor, I love all of them.

0:38:47.0 S1: That’s funny, just the pre-conversation we were having before the show, we were talking about people that getting rewarded for being that way, I was being sarcastic, I didn’t really know that these people actually existed, so I guess I have to let a shallow… We’re going to our number three, and this one actually correlates with one of the seven deadly, and I’m sure you should correlate with your seven deadly ’cause I mean, it was spot on it. And that’s anger, right? Just letting your emotions get out of hand is not the place to be, jayanthi is a case of… Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

0:39:34.9 S2: I love it. I’d say that. Nice.

0:39:39.7 S1: Alright, so now I’m in. Dino have to stop. If Keith is saying, you have to take yourself.

0:39:44.3 S2: Before you wreck your spell…

0:39:46.6 S1: I think it comes down to communication, right? So when you say communication, a lot in communication, it’s kind of like this giant bucket that we could throw a bunch of things into, and whenever we get a little stalled with an answer, we can use a… It’s communication, it’s okay to feel upset, so I can’t even feel angry, but how you display that, how you act as a different story, so you could be upset that something didn’t go your way or you can be upset that you didn’t win that big project, you guys were shooting for… But when they crosses a line, and I’ll tell a quick story, I worked in a construction company, and I walked into the office, and I was talking to the president of the company, and I didn’t know where he just… He had his head down, he looked up, he picked a stapler up and went it across the room, and it shatter on the wall, I knew it wasn’t because of something I did, but it was still something that made him angry enough to do that. Now, all I can picture is if that happened today, what things would be like…

0:40:44.6 S1: But it didn’t have to be like that. Right, and we could just say, There’s a problem condoning. Ve me a second, let me sort through something, not let me throw a stapler across the road that’s like a salt with a deadly weapon. If the stapler was open.

0:41:01.1 S2: You like one of those roof things like tape, you’re putting roof tiles on, you dangerous.

0:41:07.6 S1: That’s awesome, I love it.

0:41:09.0 S2: Okay, so I have to tag on to that, Jay’s.

0:41:12.5 S1: She was the one who threw the stable…

0:41:14.3 S2: No, no. In the fourth grade, fourth grade, I had a really nice teacher, and my friends had the not so nice teacher, and rumor has it, she would throw staples, not at kids, but just in the room when she was upset with them. That’s normal, right? Yeah, So anger, it’s okay to feel your feelings and you can be upset, but before you approach someone, you need to calm down, you cannot lead with emotion, you have to either that’s counting, taking a walk, a breather, whatever that looks like. But people will feed off of your emotion, so if you’re angry, unless that’s what you’re going for, and you want everyone to feed off of your anger and get angry along with you, you have to approach it calmly. And you can still get your point across in a firm manner without coming across as a big jerk. Right. So I think about in my Antti will apply in any industry, I think about my profession now, I’m dealing with angry students, I have middle school students, they may come in and just having a bad day, and if I come at them angry, that’s just going to escalate the situation…

0:42:42.9 S2: But just like a child, adults have feelings too, so if I come at someone angry in the workplace, again, that’s just going to fuel the fire and make them more upset and possibly to walk out on me as a leader, so anger, you have to… It’s okay to feel your feelings, but you have to approach in a calm, professional, respectful manner, and you can still be firm about it, so when there’s anger in the workplace, one of the by-products is you create an environment where no one’s willing to tell the truth, because telling the truth means you get in trouble, so if I have a supervisor who’s attached to their ideas, attached to their way or no way, and I see the train going off the ledge, I have choices, you can tell the truth and get in trouble and get yelled at, and all of a sudden everyone’s angry and screaming and I’m in trouble, or I can say, Well, boss is the boss, and let that try and go right off the cliff. And so when we’re angry in the workplace, we think we’re getting people in line, and we think we’re telling people what to do, and we’re holding people accountable, and we’re doing all this stuff, and what we’re really doing is teaching people, it is not okay to tell the truth, it is not okay to innovate, it’s not okay to collaborate because we…

0:44:04.7 S2: We collaborate, we were just being told what to do. We stop making our own decisions or just being… You’re just waiting around for… So I wanna tell you what to do so no one gets angry, which then causes people to be angry too, and so I think that, yes, the anger is there, but when you think about how it changes a culture and how does it change business results… Anger is really dangerous because it removes the truth from the conversation, beautifully said.

0:44:33.0 S1: Why I have never made that connection between anger and truth. That’s very interesting. It’s very interesting indeed. So anger correlates with anger on our guesses and your… Seven deadly, I guess. Yeah. Alright, that’s good. We’re on track, we are on track on right now.

0:44:56.6 S2: For once we’ve got a date. Not Oilers. Yeah, training DETRA in store.

0:45:06.0 S1: Fourth, biggest or fourth Tate kind of discussed amongst ourselves before you came on and saying, decided which ones do we not like, this one is in decision on decision that inability, we expect our leaders to have a direction, have a strategy, at least, not how to implement the strategy, but at least have a strategy that utilizes the team… Mr. Franz? Yes, no, I mean, I’m handing it over to you. I’m not saying… Because either way… My wife might argue with that. He does come out that way when I’m with my wife, it’s like, Where do you wanna go? What movie you wanna go see? So yes, those things fall in to place there as well, but I think as leaders, one of the biggest things were held responsible for is making decisions, and as leaders, we have to make decisions, and unfortunately, we have to make them fast, we have to make fast decisions, so we have to create an environment that, it’s okay to fail. We say all the time that failing is learning, and it’s okay to fail, and as long as we learn from it and we move forward, but there’s times that we just have to make decisions and we have to make them fast.

0:46:25.4 S2: Alright, so I’m gonna share a story. Now, I had a boss once who… Fantastic director and I learned so much from him. Right, and when we would take clients out to each, his big thing was, you better know what you want for lunch or dinner, depending on the situation we were in, because you never want to appear weak and not be able to make that decision quickly, like you need to know what you want, you better know the menu before you go in there, he’s like, coaching is like now as his leader, he’s like… Because you wanna go in there and show the clients, our clients say, Hey, I can make a decision here, I know what I want, no, no baffling, right? Going back and forth. So it’s important to be able to make those quick decisions, but it’s also important to know as leaders, Okay, when do I take a step back and involve my subject matter experts, because I don’t know everything, so there may be times where I need to gather data and we know that data is just data, it’s just numbers, unless we create some purpose here, we need to know what kind of data we need, and it needs to make sense with what we’re trying to decide on it, and then when to gather our subject matter experts, they may not be the SMES in our particular area.

0:47:39.8 S2: Maybe someone in a technology area or over here over there, but we need to know who we’re gonna talk to to be able to make that good decision, and I think it’s okay too, that when you make a decision, it could lead to another decision being made later and understanding that, that’s alright as well, maybe we need to, Hey, I made this quick decision here, but now I need to make another decision that’s gonna make it even better and create even more efficiencies for our company. So I think decision-making, it’s a critical skill, and you know it’s just… I think it’s a practice. It’s really a practice thing as well, like you have to practice it. I know the decisions I made as a leader at 18, because I was like you, Jennifer, I had those store keys in a pet store, I thought I was so cool ’cause I was this 18-year-old with store keys and the security code, and I would… And that was huge for me. Right, but I did not make great decisions in comparison to now, it’s also experienced with time, so that wisdom… So I think there’s so much that plays in with decision-making, I think there is the fear, there’s time and position and just life.

0:48:49.8 S2: I think also when you think about top level executives, I think that they do have to change their mind and it could feel like a decision because the world is changing so fast, we have to change decisions, we can’t get attached to some things because then if the world changes and we’re attached decision, we’re a little bit of trouble. So I think what leaders have to do is it get really clear on their core values, how do they make decisions based on core values, so there’s consistency when you’re consistent as a leader, though, you may be making some different decisions, but your core of who you are as consistent, then people can predict your decisions, they can make decisions because they pretty much know how you’ll respond, but if you’re indecisive and every day is a new day and you don’t have a foundation of core values of how you make decisions that no one around you can make decisions either you have a whole company of indecisiveness, the other thing we have to be really careful as humans is decision fatigue, and what can you take out of your life from a decision standpoint? And it really makes a difference.

0:49:54.4 S2: Recently, I was working with this woman who’s a new C-suite, she’s just mentally exhausted and she’s like, And I just have to go home now and figure out what to feed the kids, and I’m like, What if your kids figure out what to feed themselves and… So then she got one of those services on Sundays, the kids go and mark the box, they know what the family is gonna eat every night she goes home, she pops it in and she doesn’t have to make that decision that night, and it’s amazing. The stress that that took off of her, just trying to remove decisions, so there’s a lot in there, we could have an entire conversation, a whole hour on making decisions, I’m so glad you guys brought that up… It’s not on my list. Good job, guys. What were we going?

0:50:41.2 S1: Right. Alright, I’m correct, a two things I wanna tag on one for each of you, 16 years old, somebody gave me keys to a sub-shop and asked me to run a sub-shop at 16. Why not? Should never have happened. I never should be.

0:50:57.1 S2: A to do it.

0:50:58.0 S1: I was the only in… The only one willing to do it is the problem. But 16 should never be running a franchise by yourself.

0:51:05.6 S2: Too much, and I always… It moves in my career were because not as I was the right person with the experience I was willing to do, and the water before I got the job, there’s so much… Yeah, you just have to be willing and figure it out…

0:51:20.8 S1: Right. And then the one last thing I wanna throw out there, you mentioned decisions and having to make decisions about lunch and so forth, I actually went to a place in Boston called Daniel Hall, and they have this pizza place called Pizza Riverina. And when you get there, the line is so long that when you get up there, you better know what you want, and I told my wife, I said, Look, we’re getting the line here, know what you want. So we get up to the front of the line and I got there and he looks at me and he said, and what do you want? I sashes on a sonar, whatever I said, so great. I move over, you turn to my wife because what do you want… See was next. And just skip right over. Pizza Nazi. So those people exist. Not only inside it. So she looks at me, she was, What are we gonna do? I said You, you’re get the back and Aladdin rope for you.

0:52:12.5 S2: So of those… Yeah, you gotta know a… No.

0:52:16.8 S1: That is our discussion. Jay, we’re handing it back to you, so… Nice, thank you very much. I like that discussion tonight. Very good. Well, folks, tonight we discussed arrogance, the feeling of being superior to somebody else, and we realize in our world that we don’t have any room to be superior over anybody, that each position has its own value in that position should be valued for what it is. We also know that micro-managing that no one person could know it all, and that we need to rely on our team and the individual strengths of our team members, and then when it comes to anger, it is okay to throw a stapler across the room, is that where we leave it on that one, it’s okay. Or is it not a ton?

0:52:56.2 S2: Not quite, not. Only if it’s empty. No, no, no, never, never. A.

0:53:04.0 S1: Staple guns or cash. What it was… I don’t know, I’m so confused. So Nantong, alright, well, we know anger removes truth as we all learn tonight, so thank you, Miss Jennifer for that yet, and then we learned that, yes, thank you for that. In decision means no pizza for you. So as leaders, we know that we need to be decisive and we need to be able to make decisions, even if that decision is what meal we’re gonna eat in front of our clients, and then our fifth surprise, one is greed, and understanding that most people don’t look agreed necessarily in a traditional manner, and that green can come, which is the idea of wanting a different position or a different promotion within an organization, so we have to keep ourselves in check when it comes to greed. So with all that said and done, I’d like to say if you found any value in Tonight Show whatsoever, please tell a friend, Keith, sir, thank you as always, thank you for pushing all the buttons, especially mine, and Miss mind, thank you for out weighing… Keith’s left turns. And then, of course, Ms. Jennifer, we can’t thank you enough for staying up late, putting up with us in our weird sense of humor, we appreciate you and we appreciate all that you have done for us tonight, so good night.

0:54:25.6 S1: Thanks for listening to Franze and Friends and make sure you visit us at J-France dot com, subscribe, connect, and say hello. We’ll see you next time on Franze and Friends.

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