The Talent Cliff And Psychological Safety

Are you an HR rebel? Listen to Jen Thornton talk about psychological safety with some of her favorite HR rebels.

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Transcript

00:00 S1: I’m Kyle Road, and this is the Rebel HR podcast. Welcome to the podcast, has a podcast for HR professionals who are ready to make some disruption in the world of the load. Follow us online on Facebook at HR podcast, revel Human Resources dot com, or follow me on Twitter at rebel HR guy. Alright, listeners, I am extremely excited to introduce you to our guest today, Jen Thornton, she has developed an expertise in talent strategy and leadership professional evolve over her exciting 20 plus year career as an HR professional. What excites me the most about Jennifer is the fact that she has an unconventional approach to building innovative workforce development solutions. Welcome to the show, Jen.

00:59 S2: Thanks for having me. Absolutely.

01:01 S1: We’re excited to have you. So we started to talk about this earlier, but I’d like to just understand a little bit about how did you get into Human Resources?

01:11 S2: Yeah, so my background actually originated in operations, I was in the retail industry for most of my career, and I realized very early on that I didn’t get my results from being highly competitive or wanting to always be number one in all of my financial numbers, but I oftentimes was, and I did it different, and I always kinda looked around and was like, Why am I doing this different, or I seem to be… My approach seems to be different, and over time, what I realized it was because I was really passionate about the team being a great of What the teammates that I did hire, their development, how they interacted with each other, and really how they came together collectively to make the results come to life. And so that’s how I did it through operations and through just a series of events, I started doing more and more projects that were people-leaning and then moved in officially into HR from operations, but because of my operations background and the fact that I woke up for a good majority of my life to my score card and my numbers, every day, I’ve always looked at HR different from a strategic mindset of How do we deploy our teams to ensure that we’re meeting our objectives as an organization.

02:26 S1: I always love hearing the HR origin stories. It’s pretty rare to find somebody that actually went to school and said, I went to school for HR, and I always knew I wanted to be in HR, they’re certainly the exception, not the rule. Absolutely. So one of the things, Jen, that I’d really like to dive into today is, is a little bit more about your consulting organization, I know that you’re helping a lot of different organizations on growth strategies, talent strategies, how to hire retain, develop a pipeline. And one of the things that you specifically look at is something called the Talent Cliff, so can you help us understand what is the talent Cliff, and how can we avoid falling off the cliff…

03:11 S2: Exactly, no one wants to go off that talent Cliff, it’s never good for the business, and so as I watch the organizations I’ve worked for and watched new initiatives succeed and fail and really kind of looked back and thought, why is that… And then in my own organization, when we work with organizations, thinking about why they’re successful or why they are struggling, and what I’ve come to realize is that most organizations do not have a talent strategy that lays on top of their business strategy. We talk about business strategies all day, every day, and we have to turn in our quarter leads in our yearly… In our five years, and then especially for start-ups that are going up for funding, they have all these really detailed in-depth business plans, but how you do that is through your people, and no one says, Oh, by the way, here’s how we’re gonna do the work here’s how we’re gonna deploy the work, here’s how we’re gonna ensure that our talent is growing just as fast as our business. And so what happens is, if you don’t have a talent strategy that is consistent with your business strategy, your business will likely grow for a while because you’re really smart, you’re bringing in great people, and that business starts to take off.

04:23 S2: But then what happens is the business out grows the skill set of your team because you haven’t invested in them, and then once that starts to happen, there’s some clear indicators, so our leadership gets stressed, so they’re highly directive, Do this, do that. They get nervous, so they move into fear about the business, and so they don’t open themselves up to seeing the truth, oftentimes they get overwhelmed, there’s no one good to hire, all those things we hear people say, and what happens is, obviously our cells start to fall very rapidly, because our talent can’t handle it, our best talent starts to leave because they only wanna be on a winning team, and what we’re left with are those individuals who are doing what they’re told that’s not what we need in a growing business, and that’s when you go off that talent Cliff.

05:12 S1: Seeing it up close and personal. And I think one of the things that I really appreciated about what she just said is the fact that the top talent wants to be on a winning team, so in this environment in covid, there’s a lot of organizations that don’t feel like they’re winning, maybe to… No fault of their own. Just because of the economic environment. So what advice would you give an HR practitioner or a leadership team that’s trying to figure out, Okay, how do I keep the moment and how do I keep my top talent engaged, and how do I help my team feel like they’re winning? Even though it doesn’t feel like it right now.

05:50 S2: Yeah, and that’s a tough one. When you think about some of the struggles, every business is how to struggle, some businesses have done better during covid for whatever reason, but that means there’s a struggle and some have struggled financially… Maybe because of the industry they’re in. So no matter what industry you play, again, there’s a good chance you’ve had some type of struggle, and when you think about these opportunities, taking those top talent, hopefully, we know who our top tale and is, and don’t think of it just as well, these heavy level executives think about even those individual contributors, there’s individual contributors who come in day after day, and they are those pieces of the engine that keep it running really well, and without them, things go south fast, oftentimes we don’t even realize what some of our individual contributors are doing to keep our company afloat. So really look at those top people and start having conversations with them, How are you doing… What’s going on? During this time period, there are unique experiences available, where do you see yourself helping the organization, how can I deploy you in a way that gives you the opportunity to increase your experiences in your education and really ask people to start to participate in the business in whatever way they can…

07:08 S2: And I think that’s what sometimes we don’t do as leaders is we get through tough times and we just start telling people what they need to do, we don’t invite them and to say, Hey, what are you seeing? What are you hearing? What do I need to know that I don’t know today? And how do you see yourself helping us… And I think that’s the big question that’s asking people how they can show up, and because they’re gonna know, the closer you are to the customer, the closer you are to the business, the more you’re gonna know on how to take what you’re dealing with and move it forward, when you talk about the people that are in-house and the role players and the contributors.

07:45 S1: I think one thing is leaders are missing the mark on asking them, What can we do differently, how can we reassure you that we’re in an okay place and that’s kind of hard to say when a lot of companies are not in an okay place, I guess, what suggestions do you have for maybe somebody like my organization where I can go to those top individual contributors and say, Hey, we’re gonna be… And I guess what suggestions you have for somebody like in my position?

08:13 S2: Yeah, so somewhere in your position… I think honesty is the best way to go. Here are the specific challenges, here are the three challenges that we’re faced with today as an organization, here’s what we’re thinking, here is what we’re doing, but then invite the conversation to come in from the employees, because if your team knows what you’re specifically concerned about, then they are more likely gonna be able to help you with great ideas or refocus their priorities, so if I’ve got 10 things on my to-do list that my CEO or my head of HR has been really clear at the end of the day to get through this, these are the 3D things we’ve gotta… Now I’m gonna re-prioritize and I’m gonna look at my work differently, and I’m gonna bring things to my supervisor that are different if I know, but what happened is, too often as leaders, we get scared to tell the truth, we get scared to say, Hey, it’s tough but here’s what we’re doing, and therefore your team is just kind of walking around in circles, and they’re not able to support you with those changes and challenges. You know.

09:14 S1: One thing we did here at my organization, and Kyle, I don’t think I’ve shared this with you, is we had a meeting with our CEO and all of our employees, and the message was simple, and we said to them, We’re gonna be alright, just in how we’re getting through it, but we also said to them, think differently about your role and don’t just do your day-to-day operations or customer service functions, but really provide value, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself, Am I really providing my organization value? And that’s not just in the work, it’s in your attitude, it’s how you encourage your co-workers and things like that, and that really got a lot of people to think… I got a lot of people nervous, not a lot, a few, but I think it was appropriate at that time to send that message, and I think we’ve had some success with it, but for some concerns…

10:07 S2: Yeah, one of the things that I often work with with executive teams, when they are in a place where they feel like they don’t know what’s wrong, where people… When I hear things like My team isn’t doing what I need them to do, or they’re not bringing the ideas, and there’s reasons why in a lot of it is fear. When fear is kicked in, our pre-frontal cortex isn’t working quite right, and so that shuts down our innovation and our collaborations and our thoughts. So one of the things that we do, which would work really well in this situation, if you’re an organization, you have three challenges and you need your people to think of value different, think about how they’re showing up different, then have what I call the craziest idea ever meeting and tell your team, I need you to come with the most insane, craziest ideas that seemed like almost impossible, and I want you to show up with them, and in fact, I’m gonna award you the person who comes up with the most ridiculous idea gets an award. And what that does is it tells the brain, I can come up with something ridiculous.

11:09 S2: Because when we’re going into these brainstorming sessions or how do we turn the business around, or how do we handle this challenge, we stop ourselves unconsciously by coming up with great ideas because we’re in fear of rejection, fear of judgment, fear of getting in trouble for telling the truth, there’s so much fear in that, and so if we flip our language and we actually reward people for being crazy and just out there, then we get really honest and we can open up in a whole new way. And it’s just a really great way for people to show up differently and remove fear when it comes to creating new ideas.

11:45 S1: I think that’s a great topic, and obviously, if you just turn on the news, there’s a lot of things to be afraid of right now, so what advice would you give to a leader who both has a team who is just afraid and living in a very tumultuous time, but is also afraid as a leader to give a transparent and clear message to their team…

12:12 S2: Yeah, And so fear is something that we all have in our minds, and then there’s a really specific reason why it’s to keep us alive. And so if you look at how our brains are designed, it’s only has that one job and that is to make sure that we are alive and breeding every day and through evolution, how it kept us alive as it kept us in the cave, because if we left the cave, then the Vic dinosaur might get us or a wild animal, or we didn’t have the right protection from the cold. And so today, our brain still does those things, but here’s how it shows up in the workplace, I’m afraid I’m gonna lose my job ’cause then I might not be able to provide the same way it did through evolution. And so what you wanna do is recognize this fear is a natural chemical response to what is going on, it is your brain doing its job, and when you start to recognize that that fear is just part of how you are chemically wired, how we all… Every human being in the world is typically wired, then you can start to put it to the side and start looking at it in a different way, and as a leader, when you think about those fears of, Oh my gosh, what if we have to do a riff what if we can’t do? We’ve always given an annual bonus, we may not be able to do that this year, your brain will go into fear, what I ask you to do is I recognize it’s just a chemical response and that…

13:33 S2: You can set it to the side and you can get creative and you can look at it in a different way, and then imagine that same thing with your team when you’re a person or someone on your team comes in and they’re just not theirselves, they don’t have that energy, they’re just off and you’re like, Why is there a problem? Now they’ve got some fear going on and we don’t know what that is, and so having a conversation around What can you control today, what are your fears if those fears weren’t setting with you today, what decision would you make for the business? And really just coming to terms with that chemical fear response.

14:06 S1: It’s almost like when I look at front line managers and supervisors that have 10 million things on their plate, maybe they have some fear just even talking to their employees ’cause they don’t wanna hear any bad news and they don’t want to, let’s say, disrupt the employee’s day and challenge them by saying, What is your fear? It’s okay to be fearful. Let’s talk about it. How would you address with the managers that are with the employees every day on how approach maybe that conversation are getting it started?

14:38 S2: Yeah, I love that question. And I think one of the first things we have to do is set aside our own bias, and so it’s very easy to say, You know what? Everyone’s dealing with covid, I’m fine, you should be fine. And kind of have that attitude or, Oh my gosh, I can’t leave my house. I’m very concerned and think everyone else feels the same way, and so I say, I think the best thing for leaders to do is to go into these conversations and just allow that employee to share their experience and what’s on their mind for the value of which it is and saying to ourselves, their experience, their reality is theirs, and I can accept that, and then after you have those conversations and sit down with someone and just say, Hey, I just wanna catch up, a lot of men go on this year… Just tell me what’s on your mind and will listen to them and then continue to ask questions, where can you… Or do you feel like you are important? Where do you feel like you make the biggest impact… What is going on personally, maybe someone’s balancing home schooling and trying to get their job done, how can we look at your work differently so that you still succeed and still…

15:43 S2: Or a top player, but yet you’re still taking care of what’s important, and so really taking the time to think about accepting that person to where they are, go ahead and have that conversation and then ask questions and find compromise, because as leaders, when we get fearful and when we want people to think the way we do because we’re in fear that we might fail, we start telling people how they should think, how they should respond, and that is never going to work in those conversations.

16:11 S1: Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, we had this conversation in on the last podcast episodes, but telling my wife to calm down never works.

16:22 S2: No, not a good choice. Yeah.

16:26 S1: Yeah, I’m still learning. I have a lot to learn. So I love… This is like a perfect quote for this podcast, their experience is their reality, and I think that that is… It’s a different way of thinking for a lot of leaders, so we’re starting to get into talking about psychological safety and trust, so as you look at those items in the workplace, how can we make sure that somebody feels that they are psychologically safe at work in the midst of environmental risks that have presented themselves in 2020…

17:13 S2: Yeah, I love that you bring up psychological safety, and I know it’s kind of that new buzz word that’s kind of floating around, and it’s so important, and the reason why the IT gets important more now than ever, is our 20th century, a way of leading actually promotes fear and the way in language in which we were told, and so for a lot of years to be a great leader, you are supposed to be strong and never show them, never show your team that you have cracks and tell people what to do, and if they miss their goals, give it to them and motivate them by yelling at them, and all of that way we’ve been taught to lead is actually creating fear and animosity, and when we start to think about psychological safety, we really have to rewrite our language, and we have to think about how that language looks different, so if you have someone who’s opposed to whose job is to make outbound sales calls and they haven’t been landing as many meetings as you think they should know the old kind of responses, we’ll just call them and give it to them and that’ll really motivate them…

18:16 S2: No, that’s not true. That actually moves them into fear, and so the next time they pick up the phone, they’re gonna be like, Okay, I really need you to meet with you, they’re gonna have a sense of desperation, and no potential clients gonna wanna be meeting with a desperate phone call Perlis person who’s just so desperate to get them on the call, and so if you called and said, Hey, your numbers aren’t there, let’s get honest, you know that I know that. What are the three obstacles, what is the one thing I can have a conversation with you about today that will help you move the needle? It’s important to say things like, what’s that one thing… ’cause people are gonna be in fear and they’re gonna say, Oh, I’m fine, I don’t need nothing, I’m just gonna make more calls, but when you say I need one thing, the brain’s like, Oh, I have to give him or her something, and once they start talking, they start talking more, to really think about how do you have those conversations? And what language are you using? Because our typical language actually is really dangerous when it comes to creating psychological safety…

19:13 S1: Yeah, I think it’s been really fascinating, just over the last decade plus in the workplace, to see the shift of what we consider good leaders versus in effective leaders, and the shift from the command and control leadership style to one that I would call a more empathetic leader a servant leader approach. And I can personally remember getting dressed down for a bad decision that was de-motivating and certainly didn’t help me solve the problem, it just made me afraid that if I made the mistake again, I was gonna get fired. Right. So not a comfortable place to go to work in, right.

19:57 S2: Right. And when we dress people down for their decisions over time, I hear leaders say, I don’t know why anyone on my team will make a decision without me, I’m like, Oh, I have an idea. It’s because every time they make a decision, you yell at them, you don’t like it, it’s not the way you would do it, you don’t even have… Never even done that job, but yet you have a really strong opinion on how to do it, so over time, you’re right. They have stopped making decisions. You’re absolutely correct, but it was because of the way, let them… You force them into a corner where making decisions was a bad thing, so therefore they don’t do that.

20:31 S1: I think it’s unique right now, the shift in business and just the world of work, we’re seeing that transition with those old school managers and leaders into this new empathetic thought-offal type of leadership approach, and just navigating that. It’s a balance, and there has been that whole control factor from, I guess the old guard to a new guard, I don’t know if that’s the right way to phrase that, but you see it in employees and it’s… What I struggle is, how do you get employees to think differently, and when they have a different leader, new manager that wants them to share their ideas and execute some sort of piece of their job, it might not be as a way that their previous boss would have… Wanted them to do it, but at least they got it done. They got to the finish line. How do you encourage employees to change their thought process for win for 20 years, they’ve been pretty much living in that fear of being able to make a decision…

21:31 S2: Yeah, when you have a new leader come in and they’re wanting to lead in a different way, and the whole team is like, Oh, I’ve been down this road, and it hurts, touch the open. It’s hot, it hurts. You have to look at it as a ladder in experience, you can’t come in as leader and go, Alright, well, going forward, I’m a 201-century leadership and I’m providing you psychological safety, so everyone make decisions. And this is gonna be great. Is it not gonna happen? But you have to think about later ing, as you go in and through your words and actions, people make some decisions and other people are like, Oh, they didn’t get in trouble. Oh, wait a minute, I said something and I didn’t get in trouble, and I actually told the truth and I was celebrated for that. And so over time, just like over time, people stop making decisions or stop being thoughtful, over time you will grow that, but what happens is, because we feel like once we say something, everyone should just be that way, we give up after the first month of being this new type of leadership and everyone’s not doing what we think we do, we give up, and we go right back to our old habits because we’re not making decisions, so I’m gonna have to tell them for them…

22:38 S2: We’ll think about it as Lateran, and every time you go up a wrong, you get comfortable and you look around, this doesn’t feel so high, and then at the time you’re at the top of the ladder, you’re really comfortable, but it takes time…

22:50 S1: That’s interesting. So as we’re having this discussion, it’s… To me, I’m seeing this big circle where we start with the concern about the talent Cliff, and then as we look at all the players on a growing team, if they’ve been shut down and they’ve had this conditioning that decisions that they make are bad and that they have to circle back to a leader, I just… What’s the risk of that than actually causing the talent cliff because you’ve shut down people’s development, is that a real risk here?

23:25 S2: Absolutely, and that definitely will create that talent cliff ’cause when people are not making decisions for your organization that move you closer to your result, then the business will fail, and if you need people to come in, make a fantastic business decisions, treat your customers the way you want them treat it or innovate in a new way, you have to think about the psychological safety you… When you think about talent strategy, everyone’s like, Well, what’s the two things that every town strategy should have to have, and it’s really about looking at your entire business, it’s about looking at how do we organize work, how do we look at what work must be done? What work is nice to do what work is a habit, what work is vanity? Because we just think it’s beautiful and it really doesn’t make a difference, or an executive just likes it that way, but it doesn’t make a difference. Vanity work is my favorite thing to talk to executives about, especially if they’re concerned about their payroll numbers, I’m like, Well, let’s talk about this long list of stuff, but it starts with that, it starts about thinking about where is our organization going and who do we need on our team, and who do we have on our team to today, and how do we really start to develop them so that in five years when you need a chief HR officer, your manager of HR is ready to go in there, what kind of experiences in education and just life.

24:46 S2: Do you need to give that person? And then you have to think about how we treat each other. And what’s that culture? Psychological safety, and there’s really… Like I said, we put so much work into business plans, and then hiring is like, Oh hey, call the recruiter, we need someone to be the director of whatever, and we don’t put that same emphasis on the talent, which is how the business plan comes to life, and so that that talent plan isn’t necessarily an easy two or three-step process, it really is something that takes time, takes energy, and you have to wrap your arms around every single day.

25:21 S1: I like that you bring up the fact of calling a recruiter to hire a certain role, I think… I’ve always been a believer about when you recruit and bring people in, let’s bring somebody in that has the skills, but not just the skills, what else do they have that they can bring to the table and be a little more versatile down the road, and maybe somebody that’s willing to be open to other things and not just be in a silo on one path, and that’s it. I think this pandemic, hopefully, in a good way, is forcing HR departments everywhere to realize that the talent they’re bringing in, they shouldn’t just be looking for the skill is one person to do one function, and they need to be looking at somebody that is motivated, somebody that’s hungry, somebody that is wanting to grow and evolve and change with the business, and those are the people coming into a business that hopefully we could secure and avoid them from jumping off the cliff and leaving us after we spend so much time and effort and years and training and developing them. To me, I hope that’s one thing…

26:28 S1: That’s good that comes out of all of this.

26:31 S2: Yeah, so often, you spent a lot of years as a recruiter and I find someone who I thought was perfect for the role, and I would show the resume to the hiring manager, and I’d be like, This is why I would like you to talk to this purse and here’s what they bring to the table, they’re like, You know what? They’ve been in three different industries, they just don’t know what they want, and I’m like, No, they’re highly adaptable. They’re super creative. They’re a lifelong learner. I saw it so differently than that hiring manager who wanted someone and to come in and check the boxes, and I do hope that you’re correct. I hope that organizations are starting to see that people who are highly adaptable and who have played in a lot of different industries, they’re not uncertain, they’re actually quite amazing, they’re really adaptable and love to learn and love to play in a lot of different places and can really be that… That person who you can throw on three different projects and still see them shine in different ways, kind

 

27:21 S1: Agree more in that same context is you have individuals who are what we would call job-hopping, do you view that the same as somebody who’s been in multiple industries that has had multiple job transitions.

27:39 S2: I think they’re worth a conversation now, could there be some that have just not found their place and are struggling maybe, but sometimes if you find someone who was in one industry and did one specific… Maybe they were in marketing for 10 years, and then all of a sudden they moved into cyber security… We wanna LEAP, right? I don’t know, we’re making that up, but then you have to stop and say, We know what this person understands me, marketing, they understand how to attract people’s attention to things that for whatever reason, have been in cybersecurity for the last three years. It’s a really interesting combination, have a conversation with that candidate, because if you think about… Be someone who shows up with two very polar different kind of experiences, and when that blends to gather it may be some really interesting results, think about it as a fusion food, two kinds of cuisine that don’t sound good, and then you put them together, you’re like, that’s quite interesting. It’s really good, I like it.

28:35 S1: Fusion food, I love that. Like a guy, pietist, uran. Yeah. They’re a reference guy Fortin a HR podcast. I can check that off my bucket list. Congratulations, thanks. That’s one of the challenges. I was following a thread on Twitter and it was… There were a lot of dissenting opinions about people that change jobs a lot, but the reality is, I have a lot of hiring managers that they don’t… If somebody’s changed jobs… Maybe once every year for the last three years. They just don’t even consider that. I think the other comment that I would say is, you never know what somebody’s circumstances are, they could have just had a string of bad luck, and a company that sold them a bill of goods that didn’t produce and the company shut down, or there’s light offer redundancies and all sorts of… There’s always more of the story…

29:31 S2: Yeah, I am. So interviewing someone one time and she had that resume that I was like a, harmar is gonna think she’s a job hopper, but I just for whatever reason, really wanted to talk to the person behind the screen, ’cause I’d have really interesting experiences. And I found out she was a military wife, and so as she moved, some cities didn’t have job opportunities in that career, and so she took the opportunity to learn something new and expand her career, and her husband had retired and they had settled in the city that we needed… And we had a partner and she was fantastic because she was really scrappy, she’d moved around, she had found new ways to mark her place even though she was moving of the military wife, and she was fantastic. And we loved her, and it would have been really easy to look at her resume and been like, Eh, she’s a job hopper, she’s been in all these different industries. I don’t get it, I’m not taught talking to her, but I looked at it as Well, this is really interesting, and found out a whole another story from her.

 

30:33 S1: Yeah, to me, I hear that and in my experience with somebody who’s a military spouse is that they’re usually resilient and adaptable because they’ve had to be over the years as if people have moved around, same thing with hiring a military kid who moved around when they were young and maybe speaks multiple languages and is perfectly comfortable relocating from Traverse City, Michigan to Lexington, North Carolina because of a job opportunity within my organization and… Yeah, I love that. That’s a perfect Camden in my mind.

31:10 S2: Yeah, I agree, and I think as hiring managers and as leaders, the world is becoming, it’s different and it’s changing and heck, we don’t know what we’ll wait up to tomorrow, ’cause that’s just how our world works, and so when we’re really actively looking for adaptable candidates and finding candidates who are creative and adaptable, we’re gonna need those people because those are the ones that will help us figure out these tough times, those are the ones that were like, Well, you can’t sell that product anymore, I gotta figure this out because of whatever change people that are afraid of adapting or wanna be really pragmatic and do it the way they’ve always done, there are roles for those people, and we need those people, but we also have to have a balance of those types of people in an organization, so the organizations can be more nimble, that’s

31:58 S1: A great message, especially to students that listen this podcast, ’cause I know if you’re in, let’s say the HR, ’cause we’re HR people. If you’re getting into the world of work after you graduate and you just wanna write handbooks for the rest of your life.

32:13 S2: You probably get struggle in your career, you’re gonna wanna learn to be adaptable and right now in the world of HR, when we come in the door every day. We may think we have a plan of what we’re gonna do. But they like today, me, for example, it’s completely been flipped upside down, and I’ve had four different meetings that we’re in on my calendar, so to young ones out there, learn to be adaptable. We love you. Yes, I agree, and just everything is an opportunity to figure something else out, and when I work with the executives and they get mad about failures or not mad because something went wrong, and we sat down and we kind of unpack it and we look at what’s the ripple effect of it. They always learn something. Something became better somewhere. And so when we can start to think about those situations and think, Alright, let’s… How do we adapt? What did we actually create better out of this tragedy or this challenge when leaders start to think that way, you will start to see people adapt and be more nimble.

33:10 S1: Alright, Jennifer. Well, we are closing in on time, and I wanna make sure that our listeners can connect with you to learn more, so where can we find more information about Jennifer Horton?

33:24 S2: So you can go to the website. And we’re at 304 coaching dot com, and I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn, so check out sat on LinkedIn, I’m at Jennifer Jen Thornton ACC, and connect with me there. So me a message. Love to continue the conversation.

33:41 S1: Yeah, a lot of great value for our listeners today, and we are just scraping the surface of all of these critical topics, so I encourage you to connect with Jen and I’m sure you’ll find some value in what she has to offer, so… Jen, thank you so much. Thoroughly enjoy it. Having you as a guest today. And have a great rest of your day.

34:01 S2: Thank you, I enjoyed it. All right.

34:05 S1: That does it for the rebel HR podcast. Big thank you to our guests, follow us on Facebook at relocate, Twitter at Rohr, to see our website of Revel Human Resources dot using Apis, express it revelation or podcast or those agronomic positions. Astin.

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