A Lesson in Customer Loyalty: How to Shift From Quid-Pro-Quo to Serving People w/Jenn McMillen

0:00:00.0 Jen Thornton: Welcome to Let's Fix Leadership. And today I'm so excited that I have a special guest. And that is Jenn McMillen. Jenn is the founder of Incendio, where she specializes increasing top line revenue by building and fixing customer programs. Her and her team solve all types of CRM issues, loyalty and customer experience challenges. In my conversation with Jenn, we have the best time. We talk about how leadership has evolved over the years. We talk about how CRM has evolved over the years and call back to some of our childhood memories of early loyalty programs. But then we also, towards the end of the conversation, really get into how social changes drive how we lead and how we do work. So, sit back, enjoy this conversation Jenn and I had and have a fantastic afternoon.

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0:00:58.5 JT: The landscape of business is changing radically, yet leadership is being taught the same old way, it's always been taught. When the world is changing, it's time to bring our leadership styles along for the ride. Thanks to cutting edge neuroscience, we now have access to new tools and new language that inspires action, collaboration, and innovation in the modern workplace. I started this podcast to bring you the best of these cutting edge tools, exercises, best practices, and modern leadership strategies every single week. Whether you're a company leader, a corporate visionary, or an entrepreneur, this show gives you new insights and neuroscience in language of leadership, as well as practical steps and tips you can take back to the office. So you can lead your team in a powerful way, keeping your people happy and engaged while achieving your biggest goals, because no one has ever changed the world by doing things the way they've always been done. I'm your host, Jen Thornton. I'm a talent strategist and executive coach, speaker, and the founder of 304 coaching. Now Let's Fix Leadership. Hi, Jenn, welcome to the show.

0:02:03.0 Jenn McMillen: Thanks for having me.

0:02:04.3 JT: Well, I am excited about our conversation. It is often when I bring guests on, there are people that I could just set around and talk to all afternoon. So we'll try to be disciplined and not, talk all afternoon. But where I wanted to start with you and to help our listeners understand how we got on this call today. So give us a quick kind of recap of your career.

0:02:29.6 JM: In 30 years...

0:02:31.5 JT: In 30 years?

0:02:33.4 JM: Yeah. So I've been in the loyalty and CRM space for most of my career. Half of it client side, half of it on the agency side. And about nine years ago, I left my job as the VP of loyalty and CRM and analytics for Michael's Arts and Crafts. Started my own company called Incendio. And if you are in Chipotle Rewards, GNC's loyalty program, NASCAR, PetSmart, then you are experiencing the work of my firm.

0:03:00.5 JT: That is fantastic and an incredible, book of business and brands. I shop at almost all of those. So, thank you for creating a loyalty program for me.

0:03:08.5 JM: You're welcome. Are you wanna throwback?

0:03:09.9 JT: Yeah.

0:03:10.9 JM: Do you remember Blockbuster Rewards way back in the '90s?

0:03:14.3 JT: Of course.

0:03:14.8 JM: Okay. So I built that program when I was 27, and you can actually do 27 times two, and you've pretty much got my age there. So yes, I've been doing loyalty programs, building and fixing them, since everything was done on stone tablets, pre-computer.

0:03:30.1 JT: It's so interesting. I wonder, before technology, well, here's just a question. I don't know the answer. I don't know if you know the answer, but how did people think about loyalty before technology?

0:03:42.1 JM: Okay. So if you look at like what was considered like the first loyalty programs, do you remember watching Little House on the Prairie when we were kids? Okay.

0:03:49.1 JT: Of course.

0:03:49.4 JM: Right? And you would go into the shop, right? And sometimes Nelly was behind the counter and that good stuff. But they would say that that was actually one of the first loyalty programs when the shopkeeper knew all of his customers, knew what their tastes were, and especially things like for women, right? Knew your taste in fabric and so would, special order things in for you that he thought that you would like. And I'm saying he, because it was all gentlemen at the time, but that was really kind of the first precursor to loyalty programs. And then the first formal loyalty program, right, that the industry points to is green stamps. Okay. Do you remember, like as a kid, did your grandmother ever keep you busy? She'd be like, paste all the green stamps in the book. That was, that's technology that is pre-technology right there, followed very closely by the Subway club punch card. And then, and what it's evolved into these days is, I mean pretty seriously personalized and relevant when the programs are doing really well.

0:04:44.8 JT: Oh my gosh, I, what a blast from the past the green stamps, I remember going, we're the same age, so there'll be people listening that don't know what we're talking about. And there will be some that go, oh my gosh. But I remember going to the grocery store and there was like that like, box on the wall next to the cash register and they would kind of like an old rotary phone. They would spin the dial and you would get so many green stamps. And then I remember my mom, every, however often would set me down at the dining room table and I would have a wet washcloth and I would like, and I remember you divided them into fives and you put it on the wet washcloth, and then you put it in the book. And then we would take our books and we'd go to the green stamp store and we would buy something with our green stamps. I had even, I had forgotten all about that. So good.

0:05:29.6 JM: Yeah, 'cause I remember when we, I was pasting the green stamps in and my mother's like, well, here's the catalog, right? And they had just like a little, I swear to God, like a mimeograph sheet, you know what I mean? The ones that smelled like black cherry, remember again, we're ancient. And I was like, you can get a toaster for free, and of course, pre loyalty programs, nothing is free, but, spend to get the perks and when you had green stamps and had all that choice. And I was like, does Santa shop with green stamps? My mother's like sometimes. Yeah.

0:06:02.6 JT: Yeah. That's where Santa Shops. Yes. He buys everything with Green stamps.

0:06:08.4 JM: Yes. And the Sears catalog.

0:06:08.5 JT: And the what catalog?

0:06:09.3 JM: And the Sears catalog.

0:06:11.3 JT: Oh yes. The Sears and the JC Penney's catalog that were my fave.

0:06:15.8 JM: Many many hours spent with my siblings, circling things in the catalog and then handing them off to my mother saying, we don't need to write a list. Santa can just shop from the catalog.

0:06:24.8 JT: That's right. Make it easy for Santa [laughter] Right? I love it. That's so great. And I mean, and we, none of us have a crystal ball, so there'll be a time that we'll look back on this conversation and go, oh my gosh, remember we just did this and we just had that. And then, and today we feel like it's just earth shattering, but in 20 more years, who knows what it will look like. I think that's what's so cool about careers, about leadership, about life, is that it's always evolving and it never stays the same. But we constantly learn and build on it. So thinking about constantly learning and building on things, when you think about the young version of you, early in your leadership career, what did you learn back then that you still carry with you today?

0:07:05.2 JM: So 'cause I started in loyalty programs, pretty early on in my career, one of the big things for me was about making partnerships. And, Blockbuster, like I said, was one of the first big loyalty programs that I had ever built. And we were at corporate and we cooked up a loyalty program and we took no partners on it, right? We just we rolled it out to the field. And, for anybody out there, who's been in a retail organization, I mean, your field team is the lifeblood of your organization. They're the frontline. They're the ones who deal with customers every day. And, it was received as one of those things that corporate is just shoving down our throats again. And, for me it was like, you know what, if I ever get a chance to do this again, I am going to take partners in the field.

0:07:57.9 JM: And, so where I put that into play was a GameStop. So I was GameStop's VP of loyalty has probably kept, GameStop on life support longer than it perhaps should be. But, when I did the design of it, one of the first things I did was I set up a trip to go visit the four markets that we had identified as being our pilot markets. And I showed 'em what the research said, and I showed them what Mike said was the perfect program and let them tear it apart. And they came back to me with a bunch of ideas and I said, I'll take it back and financially model it. I came back out to all four markets and I said, what you guys have proposed is too expensive, but here's a couple other options and how can we change it?

0:08:40.0 JM: And so together, we built the program and I think that's why it was so absolutely successful. When we rolled out power up to our field organization, and at the time when I was at GameStop, we had, 6,000 stores and, we actually started with our lowest performing markets. And, they were actually having more than like a 100% conversion. It was astounding because we took our field leaders out of, our pilot markets who had been running the program for about three months. And it just got better and better and better. You know what I misspoke. We started with our highest performing markets. By the time we had course corrected and got to our lowest performing markets, they were actually exceeding metrics because we just kept iterating. And I mean, I think just for the field to finally feel like they had a partner internally was revolutionary for them. And I'm a big believer, that you should be, you should be taking partners in all aspects of your business. And for me, my field partnerships were some of the most successful ones that I had during the five years that I was at GameStop.

0:09:36.9 JT: I love that you talk about that. I think too often, most people know I grew up in Orlando retail. I grew up in stores, before I went into HR and now do what I do today. And, as a leader in the field, when I had incredible corporate partners, my business changed. And I still talk to someone today. In fact, she's a client today who helped me in the like early, early 2000s, like maybe 2000, 2002, '3, and maybe really think about the market I was in because it was, a very warm climate. The organization I work for was up in Pittsburgh, and so in August I'd be getting wool sweaters in Texas. And it wasn't surprisingly enough, it wasn't selling well. And I remember her coming down and then there was a couple allocators and planners but I really think about that time and how it turned my business around. Obviously it turned the companies around, but it has impact. Not only does it have impact on the company, but it had impact on my store manager's bonuses. They got bonuses, they were able to do something for their family and, and I think we forget the closest person to your customer is the one who has the information you need.

0:10:49.1 JM: Yeah, I did, as part of my stuff at GameStop. So my customer was really the field. I mean, ultimately I serve all the customers of GameStop, but my primary customer was the field organization. And, I was asked to start doing a TV program for them. So we had TVs in the stores and, before it opened, we ran programming, educational programming and stuff like that. And the videos that I would do, I would dress up in costume. I mean, I was fully painted as a zombie for one of them. I would, put myself in, like, there's one where I was in Frogger, remember that one, the video game and stuff. And, again, my store manager audience was around 25 to 28 years old, primarily male. And I decided to do my program as what I called, infotainment, right?

[laughter]

0:11:30.3 JT: I love that.

0:11:32.0 JM: It was like, here's what's coming for power up rewards. Here's the partnerships that we have. Here's some of the cool stuff that's gonna be in our catalog. And I was always fully dressed up, right? And never afraid about, being my authentic self. I'll tell you, talk about leadership lessons. I got blow back from that, from one of the senior leaders in my company who said that I was not representing myself professionally well, and I'm like, well, you know what? This program runs internally. And, if you ask any of the store managers, like when my CEO would go out, and he was like, from everything that comes from corporate, from training materials, what is the stuff that you like the most? And, the field organization didn't know me as Jenn McMillen, they knew me as Jenn Mc.

[laughter]

0:12:10.8 JM: And that is what I open up every video. I'd be like, Hey, this is Jenn McMillen and, but all my field partners call me Jenn Mc. Okay. So I have been gone from GameStop for my gosh, more than 10 years, and I still have people who call me Jenn Mc, and that's how I'm addressed. I have field leaders who took me on to their new jobs right? As clients, and they introduced me in senior level meetings as Jenn Mc. So, it was just, again, one of those things that has just paid dividends for me because it was a lesson learned very, very early on in my career, just about, truly about taking partners and being a good partner. And when, one thing that I pushed for was actually, for everybody who knows what Net Promoter Score is, we did Net Promoter, for, our stores and all that kind of stuff.

0:13:08.7 JM: And I was like, why aren't we doing that for ourselves at corporate? And, you wanna talk about like deer and headlight moments and I'm like, I'm confident, right? That my team is gonna do incredibly well. And, we were almost always number one on net promoter having our field organization rate us internally. I mean accounting, finance, logistics. Every department got rated. And the one time that we got Unseeded, the, logistics team, and it was right after holiday, and they took first spot over my team. And I'm not joking, the senior vice president who was like the most reserved person ever stood outside my office and did a little happy dance is like, yes, is number one. But I'm like, that's the kind of thing though from an accountability perspective, you know what, turn the table on yourself. And, as my old CEO Paul Raines used to say, look in the mirror, right? Not out the window and, look at yourself and see what you can do to improve. And that is just, again, one of those life lessons that I took with me. Just an excellent, excellent senior leader who unfortunately passed away far too young.

0:14:00.2 JT: Yeah. It is amazing when you look at who your customer is, and the customer isn't always that person who's putting money in the bank, the customer is maybe the person working with that person. Maybe it's a cross-functional business partner, and knowing that your customer always needs you to do great work and keeping that, mentality. And I think that so often it's like, what have you done for me? But for someone to do something for you, you had to have done something for them. And it's an emotional deposit. You gotta make those deposits so you can make the withdrawals when you need them and always be, have money in the bank. Oh, have money in the bank, have emotional deposits stored away for people. So if you need something they're for you. But at the end of the day, you've done what you should do as a human, and that is, make the world a little better place, especially at work.

0:14:56.5 JM: Well, it's funny that you used the word emotional because one of the trends in loyalty program design is emotional loyalty. And, I mean, when you ask me about, programs of your, it was very transactional, right? It was buy something, get something, so you bought something, I'm gonna give you reward for it, or, a bank of points or, whatever it is. And now the trend in design is actually way, way, way more relational. And it is, again, as a consumer, how do we build that relationship with you that feels sick, not, I mean, I'm sure everybody, this has gotten the email from a company that you have not done business within five years. And it's like, this is only for our VIPs.

0:15:38.6 JM: And you're like, that is utter BS because I haven't even shopped you. And so if I'm one of your VIPs, you are in deep, deep trouble as a business partner. [laughter] And so, but it feels inauthentic. And then I think, certainly, like the younger generations coming up, they have been raised in an era where they are used to giving their data and then in return you honor that. And so I think that's one of the really good things that has happened, certainly in my industry from the relational side and, that truly, businesses who are really doing CRM and loyalty well are doing that and bringing those emotional components into it where you understand that it is a quid pro quo and it is a privilege to serve a customer and a privilege to have them do business with you. And I mean, that's a lesson for all of us, no matter what you do.

0:16:25.2 JT: You're absolutely right. And the morning that we are recording this for those listening is, April 19th, which a lot of us know is the day Taylor dropped her double album on us, and I know, right? Gotta have our twos. So, I think about, 'cause I'm definitely not her target audience, [laughter], but I'm obsessed and we all know that. But what I love is that in exchange for us listening to her music, she gives us an experience and she puts work into it, she puts thought into it. And it's always as, if it's the scavenger hunt of it, if it's the emotional of it, like I watch her and I think there's no better example of someone emotionally connecting to the brand in the world.

0:17:10.4 JM: Yeah. Yeah. I think, and again, I think it's a generational thing. 'cause she's what, 34, 36 years old, and I mean, it is this morning on the news programs, that I watch the her new double album was one of the big lead stories. And as they dissect it, right, where at the Grammys, right, she did this and everybody thought peace sign, right. And again, she Easter Egged us. Yeah. And it's double album, you know? And so, I mean, and it's just, I just, I love that she does that because I mean, what she's done is she's taken her body of work, which is amazing. Doesn't matter if you like her or not, right? I mean, what she's it, when this album hits number one, it'll be, she will then tie with Jay-Z for the artist, the solo artist with the most amount of number one albums. So, I mean, and, she's in her mid 30s, right? But I mean, look what she does, I mean, everything with the Easter eggs, I mean, the way that she does her concert experiences, the fact that she invites fans to come over and bake with her, I mean, it's just, it's wild. And I mean, so whether she has come up without herself or whether she has the backing of an astounding PR machine, whatever she's doing is working.

0:18:16.8 JT: Absolutely. And she is definitely the example of loyalty programs. We are all loyal [laughter] forever. We will be loyal [laughter]

0:18:28.5 JM: Look at the frenzy for tickets. And the fact that, I mean, the, as I follow, so much going on in retail, the government is looking at suing Ticketmaster because of what happened with her presale ticket debacle. And not just because of Taylor, but they're saying you have a monopoly on it and you have bad business practice. But her influence is far reaching. And I find that to be amazing.

0:18:45.0 JT: Yeah, for sure. It's incredible. So when you think about today's world, and especially kind of coming off the idea of where loyalty's going with emotional connections and things like that, what do you love about leading teams in today's world?

0:19:00.6 JM: That has also changed. Right. And I think especially, 'cause I'm in my mid 50s and the way that we were taught, if I can even say taught, 'cause no one teaches you how to lead a team.

0:19:12.2 JT: No.

0:19:13.4 JM: And it was so corporate-y right? For lack of a better word and it was like, this is, you do reviews and then you have one-on-one meetings, and you, well, and look at status reports and all that kinda stuff. And I mean, it's, for me, it's really different. And again, it's different because I'm out of corporate world, right? I own my own company and I have a team who is handpicked by me. And that's also great, right? Because, you know, in corporate, sometimes you get people that you didn't pick.

0:19:41.5 JM: And so I'm in a rarefied air position on that one because I picked everybody who works for me. And, but when I had my one-on-one meeting with one of my team this week, and the first question I asked was, how is your life right now? And so for me, the way that I have changed my style is I'm so much more personal because a lot of the things that I think HR would've smacked me for, things that you are, now that you're not supposed to ask and don't, you know, and there's a lot of things you can't, there's a lot of minefields out there, and everything. And I just, I remember like when I was in corporate, right? I was an officer of two companies, two public companies, and one of my male colleagues complimented me on what I was wearing and then backtracked so fast because he was afraid that I would take it in the wrong way.

0:20:30.4 JM: And that, it's that kind of stuff where I'm like, all right, we have become robots kind of when it comes to like, corporate life. And for me, I just, I love doing what I do because I also, I count my staff as friends and I don't think I would've done that before. And like things like, you can't be friends on Facebook with people that you work with and everything. And now for me, the leadership aspect is I bring my whole self to work every day. I ask them to do the same. And the accommodations that I make for their personal situations are things that I would never have been allowed to do in corporate. And so, for instance, I'll give you one example. So at GameStop, my email manager was on maternity leave and wanted to come back and was having some challenges with the new baby.

0:21:22.5 JM: And I said, you can work from home, but don't tell anybody. Right? Don't tell anyone. And of course, that got out. And then I got the big smackdown, because I announced, set a precedent for everybody who was a new mother and wanted to work from home. And so I had to rescind that, and that sucked. Now I have someone who has some medical challenges. And you know what, if you wanna take 90 days off as medical leave, we will flex around that. And that's completely fine. And if you want, if you're feeling it and you know when the client calls are happening, if you wanna jump in on it, totally fine. Whereas like in corporate life, it was like, Nope, you're on short-term disability and you cannot participate. I mean, and so it's just like, you know what?

0:22:04.4 JM: In my world it is, you do what you feel like you need to do for yourself, and we will work it around you. And in corporate life, I felt it was the opposite. It was like, we're paying you to do a job and you have to flex around us. Again, I mean, I understand why that happens, right? Again, like I said, I was in corporate for half my career, and you have to have some process, but I prefer this quite a bit. Just because it's, when you're invested in each other personally, it makes a huge difference. And I just don't think those doors were open for me from a leadership perspective when I was in Corporate America.

0:22:39.5 JT: Let's take a quick break from the conversation. Do you have new leaders on your team? And you can see their potential, you can see their runway, but you cannot figure out how to get them across the finish line, reach out to 304 Coaching and learn more about our brain-based competency focused executive coaching.

0:23:01.2 JT: Yeah. It's interesting you say that. 'Cause you said your team is your friends and the team I have, I'm very fortunate like you are where I hand selected everyone. On my current team, because I own my own business, but I look at them as people that I learn from. I look at them as people that are my partner. And I know I couldn't do the work that we do. I mean, we as in the 304 team, we couldn't do this work for our clients if each of us wasn't showing up with our specialties. And I'm sure you get this as a business owner, people are like, well, how many employees do you have? And they always say it with like, how many employees do you have? And I always say, well, I have a unique, and I just start, I have a unique view on how I staff. I believe that no one should come to work and do work they're not good at or they hate doing because they will disappoint themselves and you every day. And so we have a variety of people, and all they get to do every day is what they are freaking awesome at. So they never feel like they're failing. They always feel like they're doing fantastic work because I don't ask them to do something they suck at.

0:24:06.3 JM: Yes, exactly.

0:24:07.5 JT: And it's so amazing to watch people show up when they feel incredibly good at what they do. And I know that's kind of an an example for you and I own our businesses. But I do think, and I truly believe you can take some of these concepts and put them in traditional offices to your traditional jobs. You can look at people and say, do we have you doing the right work? If there is some work that no one is good at, it's okay to hire someone part-time that is good at it. And I think we just have to see more creativity in our traditional way. We employ people and then more people could benefit from like, the stories you and I are telling today.

0:24:46.3 JM: It is. 'Cause everybody who works for me is a 1099. And when I started in Syndio nine years ago, I got a lot of side eye on that. And for me, so we're loyalty and CRM consultants, right? And when I was on corporate side and we had these consultants come in and, so let's just pick my goals, right? I was like, all right, so I've got this 26-year-old, fresh from grad school. And I'm like, so tell me, what did you think when you were in our store? Well, I actually didn't go in your store. Okay, so do you have any craft passions? And do you like to paint? Right? Again, Michael's is not a woman's store, a lot of gentlemen shop at and, but nothing, right?

0:25:28.4 JM: And so there was no affinity. So I'm like, all right, so what do you think you bring to my business when you have no point of view? And so literally yesterday we had a new client come in and it is a specialty apparel for gentlemen, who are on the larger side of the sizing spectrum. And the senior consultant that I'm going to pair with that account is someone who worked on apparel in plus size women's apparel, and so already has a point of view, right? And is coming into that with that one. Another client is an entertainment based client. And I don't wanna say too much 'cause it'll be easy to figure it out, who it is, but it's a certain sport, right? And one of my senior consultants is very passionate about that sport. I mean, so for me it's like, this is the match, right? 'Cause in like traditional consulting, if I had a pool of employees, it'd be like, alright, who's got capacity? All right, Jen, you're up. And Jen knows nothing about chemistry. Right. You know what I mean? But she's available.

0:26:30.2 JT: She's available. She can make the PowerPoint, she can make a mean PowerPoint.

0:26:33.5 JM: Exactly. She can learn it. She's smart. Right. But I think that's part of again, the leadership piece, right? Is what you just said. Right? It is pairing people with stuff that they are good at. And I mean, I think that's the magic formula. And for me, it's like, I mean, having 1099s is the smartest decision I've ever made. And the other thing that's funny too, right, that I got a lot of side eye on was that we all decided to work from home. And again, remember in your corporate life, and it was like, well, I need to work from home today because the cable guy's coming, or I'm having a refrigerator delivered. And they're like, yeah, yeah, right.

0:27:07.4 JT: Working from home.

0:27:07.7 JM: Yeah. I mean, and now it's just like, you know what? There is such a huge shift. I mean, I'm seeing it even just with my clients where they're consolidating from being in a building downtown to two or three floors. And it's like, you know what? We'd like to see you in the office two or three times a week. And when you come in, just pick a desk, sign up for a desk, we'll get you into whether you need a door for the day or whether you're cool to be in CubeLand, whatever. But I mean, this is where lives are changing. And so from a leadership perspective, I feel like I already got a head start because I had been managing a remote team for nine years. And I think, I'd be curious to hear what your clients have to say or what they're doing, because just the changing face of the workplace in terms of how we like to work.

0:27:49.6 JT: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting. I have, like you, I have clients in all different spectrums of all different industries, all different sizes. Public, private, founder, led, own. Like I have everything. There's nothing that, I have everything, and it's interesting because some people want everyone there all day, every day, five days a week, traditional time, and other people are not. And I always say, here's the hiring decision you make. You make one or two hiring decisions. One company is, I want the best person for the job. I don't care where they live because I want the best person. The other company says, I want the best person who's willing to drive to work every day and lives within a certain range. Because we all know more than 30, I mean, the most 45 minute commute time, you're done. Like, people aren't gonna do that. And so you choose either the best person in a radius or you choose the best person in the US. And some people overseas. But that is a very conscious decision an employer is making based on if they want people, and every employer gets to decide it's their business. For their reasons, they get to decide. But that is a decision they're making. Best person in a radius, a small radius or best person in the US.

0:29:10.4 JM: Right. I have a real life one for you. So the shuttered Bed Bath & Beyond, right? In its previous iteration, it has been bought by Overstock.com. They bought their IP, but when Bed Bath & Beyond was a fleet of stores, they were a client of ours. And one of their mandates was that you had to be in the office five days a week. And they were based in northern New Jersey. And so their pool was New York City, basically. And this is post pandemic when everybody's like, you know what, no, I am not gonna do this two hour commute. I'm not doing this. And not that I'm saying that that decision was the downfall of Bed Bath. They had a lot of other issues. But I think that's the kind of thing that's shortsighted.

0:29:52.5 JM: And like, one of my team who is based in the Eastern Time zone and assigned to a one client of ours full time, came to me and said, I would like to work from France this summer, and what I'll do is I will work the same hours that I would being an East Coast employee. And so they won't know the difference. And I was like, well, you know what? I think we raise it with them, just as a courtesy. And they were like, you don't even have to work. This is the client. You don't even have to work East Coast hours. It's like, if you wanna do stuff in the morning, if you don't have meetings, don't work, or go do things, go see France, right?

0:30:28.5 JM: Be there. And I just, and again, this is something I would never have foreseen nine years ago when I started that, even a client, I mean, and she was hired to be on site in Charlotte, and now it's like, you know what? You don't have to be. And now that I think we've all gotten very good at working from home, but again, these are some of the sea changes that are happening. And coming back full circle to your question on leadership. I mean, this is the stuff that I think you have to be willing to do. And for those of us who grew up in a corporate environment where if you weren't at your desk at 4:30 on Friday, well then that was pretty damn suspect. Yeah. So, yeah.

0:31:05.4 JT: Absolutely. Yeah. It is interesting. And again, who knows what it will look like when in 10 or 15 or 20 years, we have no idea. And that's the whole concept around Let's Fix Leadership knowing that it's never fixed. Knowing that that works no matter what day of the year. And even if we're saying it 50 years from now, it still works because it's never fixed because we evolve as humans. Therefore our leadership has to evolve too. So one of the things that you and I, when we're having dinner, just catching up, the two of us talk about are things that we talk about as women that we've been told we shouldn't talk about. And so I thought, well, what a better time than to tell the world what we like to talk about that we've been told we're not supposed to. So tell me what's on your list of things you were told as a woman, as a professional woman, you shouldn't talk about that you talk about, and the reason why.

0:31:58.6 JM: So one of my first smack downs in my professional life was when I was 24-years-old and working for an agency. And I got in trouble reprimanded and written up for discussing my salary with another employee. And so I grew up in a pretty freewheeling household, with pretty liberal parents. And we were encouraged to talk about all things, money, politics, religion, I mean, all the stuff that, again, if you're in the workplace, nope. Don't talk about it.

0:32:29.8 JT: Don't talk about it.

0:32:30.3 JM: Don't talk about it. Right. Don't talk about it. And so money, I would say is the biggest one. And I think when you and I, when we were first getting to know each other and we had a very candid conversation about money, right? And how our businesses were doing and what our challenges were and everything.

0:32:45.5 JM: And one thing you said to me was, I appreciate you being so open about this, because this is one of these things that women have been told is impolite to talk about. But you look at our gender counterparts men, men talk about it all the damn time. And I think for us, it's, I look at it as I'm open book, right? I'm open book about money. I'm open book about like, do you need to get Botox? What else you, what do you get done? I'll tell you Right?

0:33:14.4 JT: I'll tell you too, [laughter]

0:33:15.3 JM: Yeah. I'm just like, I don't care.

0:33:16.4 JT: I don't care.

0:33:16.6 JM: And I'm not trying to fight. I'm not trying to stop aging. I'm just trying to go as as gracefully as I can into the wind. But I think money's the big one, honestly.

0:33:26.3 JM: I mean, politics and religion, it's kind of easy to figure that out and stuff like that. But money, money was always very taboo. And even, I mean, my own parents, the one day I was, I was having a conversation with my mother and she said, you shouldn't talk so openly about your salary in front of my husband. She's like, because you make more than he does, and this could be very emasculating for him. And I was like, well, the fact that he just bought himself a new $70,000 Tahoe, I don't think he feels emasculated. [laughter] I think he's pretty excited that he doesn't have to work as hard to get the things that he wants in life. And it just, it was interesting because when you think about the scripts that we have all been fed from our parents and even, okay.

0:34:08.5 JM: So as you can tell, I'm working from home today and just moved into this new place. My mother is staying with me. I've kicked her out for this segment. But I've kept my previous name, right, which is last name is McMillen. And that is not my married name. My married name is Parker, but that is not my legal name. And I have a couple things here that say JM and my mother said, I think you should replace that M with a P so that Brian doesn't feel like, you don't, that this isn't, like, you're not taking this seriously. And I'm like, what? Anyway, so it's one of those things too where I just, I think about what are the scripts that my parents have fed me that I bring to work every day and bring to life.

0:34:54.4 JM: And one of them is money. And that is one huge thing that my, especially my mother who's a retired school teacher, right. And again, their salaries were published so you knew what teachers were making, right? But yeah, my mother is like, she goes, you shouldn't talk about money. It's not polite. And so I mean, put that in your pipe and smoke it. But I think especially for other women being very open about, I mean like what you make or what you spend on, I mean, all that kind of stuff, I see no harm in it. As a matter of fact, I think it's very empowering because when you can speak openly about things, I think either it helps people have aspirations, right? Like, if you can do it, I can do it. Or on the flip side, it's like, you know what, I am being so underpaid, right? For what I'm doing. And I think as again, April 19th, one of the biggest conversations in the last week was Caitlyn Clark and what she's being paid in the NBA and the WNBA $75,000 to start, win the first round draft pick from the NBA 10 mil. And everyone will say, oh, there's all these economics around ticket sales and Jersey sales and broadcast rights. And I'm like, I hope that she is the trailblazer like Megan Rapinoe was for soccer, right? When I mean, the gender disparity in terms of pay is real. Every day.

0:36:12.3 JT: Absolutely. And as long as women are told, don't talk about money, that pay discrepancy will be there because they're not talking about it. And if you look at some of our incredible female young, up and coming leaders, I am just so impressed with them, back to Taylor Swift, taking control of her music, and devaluing something that someone bought to take control. Caitlyn saying, I'm gonna do this for this amount of money, but we're gonna figure this out. Like, all of these women who are not afraid to talk about the reality of their business, and if you're an artist, a musician, an accountant, whatever you are, it is your business and your brand and who you are. And I love that women are not only starting to talk more about it, but they're starting to be heard.

0:37:06.4 JM: Yes.

0:37:06.5 JT: And that's what's important is not only are they talking, but they, people are standing up and hearing. And if you watch some of the, like male sportscasters, 'cause clearly there's more male podcasts and interviews and all that in the world of sports, they are starting to stick up for the women. And that's what you need, right? You have to have everyone in the room believing it's the right thing. And as I've been told, you were told, everyone's been told in their life, the biggest decisions about your career will be made in a room you are not in. And if we don't have everyone, no matter what your identity is, no matter where you are, say we are going to take care of each other, then you don't make progress. And I just, I can't wait to see what's in store for women athletes. I think a lot's gonna happen for them in the next 10 years.

0:37:57.5 JM: Much too. And I just, I love it because when Megan Rapinoe came out advocating for women's soccer, and then the metrics for women's soccer were compelling. I mean, they were a more winning team and I mean, their statistics were way better. And yet they were so wildly underpaid. And so I hope that has started something. I mean, I'm not just saying just because I'm a woman, but I think you should be paid for the job that you do. And it doesn't matter if you have ovaries or not.

0:38:25.7 JT: Exactly. Shouldn't we get extra 'cause we have them? No, I'm just kidding.

0:38:27.5 JM: That's great. Extra parts, [laughter]

0:38:30.3 JT: Extra parts. Pretty smart.

0:38:32.4 JM: I was like, we can make humans.

0:38:33.2 JT: Yeah. That's right. That's a challenge.

0:38:33.3 JM: Try that dudes.

0:38:35.4 JT: Let's try that. Make that happen. Absolutely. Well, this has been an incredible conversation with you. Like I said in the beginning, you and I could hang out all day and talk about the progression of leadership, the progression of how people just live their lives, view their lives, how we get work done. And I think that all we know is what today looks like and who knows what tomorrow looks like. So if someone wants to follow you along, you contribute to so many great publications, you're a great writer. Like I love following you, because of your wisdom in the world. So how does someone find you and start following all of your great advice?

0:39:18.4 JM: I am very easy to find on LinkedIn. Not only do I build loyalty programs for a living, but I'm actually an expert LinkedIn speaker. And so I speak at conferences on that topic. But if you are not interested in loyalty, you can also follow me on Forbes. So I write for Forbes. My swim lanes are loyalty, customer experience, and retail. And I'm always publishing and I'm also usually repurposing that content on LinkedIn. But I'm in RetailWire, I'm a member of the Braintrust. So I'm out there easy to find. And McMillen, M-C-M-I-L-L-E-N, my ex-husband's family chose to spell it like nobody else does. And so it has been a lifetime of misspellings.

0:39:56.5 JT: [laughter] And we will put all that information in the show notes so you can find Jenn. Jenn, I just wanna say thank you so much as always having an honest, authentic conversation with me. I hope everyone else who is listening, enjoyed it as much as I did. So thank you so much.

0:40:12.6 JM: Cool. Thank you. And the next topic we're gonna cover is women advocating for themselves in the workplace.

0:40:17.5 JT: Ooh. All right. Next one. Let's do it. All right, thanks. Have a great day.

0:40:22.2 JM: Thank you.

0:40:25.5 JT: Thanks for listening to Let's Fix Leadership. By hanging out with me today you're already on your path. If you're looking to learn more and to see if your company is a good fit for our coaching and leadership education, then hey, visit 304coaching.com. If you got value out of this podcast, share it with a friend and it would mean the world to me if you would leave a thoughtful review and a rating on iTunes. Thanks again for listening, and I appreciate your work in fixing leadership.